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Ed Oden

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Topographical Error?
« on: April 19, 2010, 02:27:23 PM »
I was originally going to post this on Charlie's AAC thread but thought it might result in an unintentional hijack.  So I'll start a new one. 

Is it possible to truly determine the quality of a hole based on a routing plan over a topo map?  I know that Ross (and perhaps many others) designed plenty of courses using a topo without ever visiting the site.  So I have every confidence that a quality design can result from a topo.  But can someone else OTHER THAN THE DESIGNER look at the topo and the resulting routing and say with absolute certainty that a hole works or doesn't work without actually seeing the finished product in the ground?  Are there examples of holes that, based on the routing/topo, you thought had to be either a knockout or a dud, which turned out to be very different when seen in real life? 

Ed

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topographical Error?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 03:37:50 PM »
Ed, I'm not sure a golf hole from just a topo and never even seeing the site would, even in the hands of an experienced architect, yields the best.  It is just one part of a multi-faceted approach.  I need to see the vistas, the environment, the lay of the land, all the intangibles.  But unfortunately, you need a starting point and when dealing with over 100 acres, and a topo is a good way to get the 2-D and 3-D spacial relationships down.  Also, as the saying goes, the topo never lies.  But your eyes can be tricked, so it's a good backstop.  Finally, the topo may reveal some interesting features, general drainage patterns and severely sloped areas that you may wish to incorporate or stay away from.

Holes laid out on topo can be homeruns or need complete re-working once you see them in real time.  The guys that are too rigid and relay solely on topo may not get the best but will probably get pretty good.  At some point it comes down to field adaptation.  Ross, remember, had seasoned field people and it was up to them to refine or adjust what he sent them.  In some ways, not too much different than todays Pro Design Houses.
Coasting is a downhill process

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Topographical Error?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 03:53:05 PM »
Ed:

A topo map is never the final cut.  There are two obvious problems that can result from just relying on the topo:

1)  Your great hole is pointed directly at an eyesore in the distance, or

2)  There is a great little feature on the ground, like a wrinkly swale that would be perfect in front of a green, but because it's less than three feet deep, the topo map didn't pick it up well enough to make it obvious to the designer.


A lot of the stuff that makes St. Andrews great would not show up on a topo map, or on a set of plans with a 2-foot or 0.5-meter contour interval.  I mentioned that to Mark Parsinen just as they were starting to build Kingsbarns, and I think the idea took home with him.

To address your title, though, I have rarely seen major errors on topographic maps.  There have been a couple of small ones in my experience -- a feature in the trees that was missed, say.  But I am much more often amazed at how accurately they pick up things which were hidden from view on a walk-through.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 03:54:50 PM by Tom_Doak »

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topographical Error?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2010, 10:31:31 PM »
Tim and Tom, thanks for the responses.  What got me started on this was the armchair architect contest.  It occurred to me that so much of what I envisioned didn't translate into the drawing.  Much of the detail is in my head.  And I doubt anyone else will see my mind's eye quite the same way I do.  So I can certainly understand why having experienced field guys who "see" things as closely as possible to how the architect thinks would be critical to realizing the designer's vision.

Ed

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topographical Error?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 02:54:36 AM »
Tim and Tom, thanks for the responses.  What got me started on this was the armchair architect contest.  It occurred to me that so much of what I envisioned didn't translate into the drawing.  Much of the detail is in my head.  And I doubt anyone else will see my mind's eye quite the same way I do.  So I can certainly understand why having experienced field guys who "see" things as closely as possible to how the architect thinks would be critical to realizing the designer's vision.

Ed

Ed, with this last post, you seem to be talking about the detail of your design, not the topo on the ground... The detail of your design will be shown using detail drawings (using the D/C approach) or work its way out during construction (more so using the D/B approach)...

The detail of the topo map might miss some minute detail that the experienced designer would use (see Tom's post) but should still tell you whether you have a possible great hole on your hands... Before I started studying GCA properly, I was of the opinion that most routing would be done by walking the site... Only after reading Tom's 'Anatomy of a Golf Course' and then actually properly studying and practicing the subject did I realise just how much time you spend with the topo for your routing (and how much easier it is to route via topo)... Always with an intial detailed site analysis and follow up trips if possible of course...

To answer another of your questions though... I think it is a fairly regular occurance that a designer thinks he has a great hole on his routing and then is slightly disappointed with the way it turns out... and vice versa... that a designer doesn't see anything special on a hole from his routing and then is delighted with the way it translates in to the ground... It would be interesting to hear specific examples from the likes of Tom and Tim though...