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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« on: March 24, 2002, 08:16:31 AM »
In The Perfect Golfer, Mr. Wethered laments the loss of the forced carries over gorse at Ganton Golf Club on a number of holes, especially the first six. Apparently, the majority of holes at some point looked like I recall the 13th hole as still looking from the tee: a 150 yard (+/-) band of gorse seperating the tee from the fairway.

Such gorse would have no impact on the tiger golfer and would snare the weaker golfer from time to time. Conversely, Wethered seems to believe that visually, the course suffered with its removal.

How would your opinion of Ganton be impacted if such gorse was brought back? Or do you prefer it as it is today, appreciating that more level of players can get around it?

Cheers,

PS I don't know who makes up Ganton's membership (i.e. if it's a lot of seniors) but my question isn't meant to be about that  - it's more about if you agree that restoring the gorse for visual reasons (I hate to use the phrase 'eye candy') would alter your opinion of the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2002, 09:51:23 AM »
Ran:

Indeed, Dickinson in his 'round' mentions that Ganton has 'no really fierce carries,' circa 1950 I suppose.  I have yet to play or see the course as yet, but am planning to venture down to it this Thursday, after which I will be able to post some tee shot pictures and offer a recent perspective of the carries, or lack thereof.

Just out of habit, I would probably weigh the enjoyment of the many as preferrable to aesthetics or the whims of scratch players.  Particularly due to the fact that recovery from gorse is not only impossible, but finding the ball is also near impossible at times.  Taking a lost ball is a huge penalty...much worse than a contrasting thicket of rough or even a pond.

I will inform all of my opinions later in the week, and hopefully get a good day for photography.  Do you think Wethered meant that there was a merely a row of gorse to clear, or that the entire area tee to fairway was basically covered?  Did the gorse affect visibility as well?  We shall see...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2002, 10:19:13 AM »
Chris,
Fisher's Island handles the dilemma of forced carries by allowing a player who has dubbed one in the fescue to hit again, but from a set of tees that are ahead of the patch. This would appear to satisfy the less skilled for it gives them a chance to try the carry with less pressure on them to execute due to the smaller penalty for failure. I also liked this idea when I saw it because I think a player of lesser ability who successfully negotiates the carry will have an improved outlook on his game.
The forced carry plays with good players minds also!  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Chris_Hunt

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2002, 10:52:04 AM »
Jim:

I believe there are similar local rules elsewhere that I have seen. It is nice, but two strokes are effectively lost anyway...How often do you go back to the tee when you cannot find your ball?  I know I never do, but the fact of the matter is that if you lose a ball, under the rules it is stroke and distance lost.  I agree that forced carries play with the mind of the good player too, but less frequently with his score or match :)  .

I have not seen the rough at Fisher's.  Is it really that unplayable in front of the tee?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2002, 02:24:56 PM »
Chris,
I recall it as being nearly impossible to hit out of, in the areas it is used.
As a local rule it becomes a similar penalty as that of a water hazard, more like 1 1/2 strokes. It gives a player the chance for a stellar par or an easier chance at bogey, although you are right about the penalty if using strict rules. A player can opt to use the forward position and avoid the junk altogether, which was being done by a couple of players in the group ahead of us.
I think it encourages less skilled players to "step up" and for that reason I like hte idea of some forced carries, especially when the situation resembles that found at Fisher's.

Usually the fellows I play with force a return trip, or you can just concede them the hole there and then.  :)

I wonder what the stuff is like at Ganton and if they do anything similar?













 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2002, 06:14:37 PM »
Chris,

In repsonse to your questions,  "Do you think Wethered meant that there was a merely a row of gorse to clear, or that the entire area tee to fairway was basically covered?  Did the gorse affect visibility as well?" what I was picturing was Pine Valley-isque seperation of tees and fairways by a relatively wide band of gorse. I can't think of any holes at Ganton like 6 or 16 at Pine Valley where the diagonal angle off the tee would be as  crucial/strategic but more head-on carries like 2 at PV.

And yes, visibility would have been an issue on a hole like 1 at Ganton where I don't believe the golfer would have had much of a view of the fairway.

We very much look forward to your report (though I guess the gorse won't exactly be at peak bloom in late March ;)).

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2002, 08:46:47 PM »
Ran:

I doubt that the gorse would do much for my opinion of
Ganton.  As I've stated in earlier threads, I liked and respected Ganton, I just didn't understand its ranking on the world list.

It's good.  It's just not THAT GOOD.

Gorse or no gorse!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Chris_Hunt

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2002, 03:57:30 AM »
I am back from a rigorous 36-hole match at Ganton, where I lost my ball and the match in the right hand rough near the road at the last...ah well.  The weather was glorious and the gorse was blooming well enough to allow for optimum playing conditions and full aesthetic appreciation as well.  

The course is very much a sanctuary in my mind, an anomalous deposit of sand with a burgeoning array of birds and wildlife and hellish bunkers.  The greens rival Luffness New and Muirfield in quality, and surely beat them in speed for this time of the year.  The course, to me, plays more like a links than some originals.  The variety of holes is good, with some outstanding individual features, such as the left and back portions of 4th green complex, which looks like MacKenzie's work to me, the clumpy lone gorse bush on #2 that gives you the line off the tee, the natural looking 'water feature' in front of the 6th tee, the fairway contouring at the 9th, or the sinusoidal approach at the 15th.  I rate this course ahead of Woodhall Spa, where the bunkers are surely deeper, as the best inland courses outside of Surrey.  It also has one of my favorite practice putting greens that I have seen.  

As to tackling Ran's question:

In all honesty, I think that the title of Mr. Wethered's work is more than a little clue as to who's perspective his viewpoint is geared towards.  The majority of the tee positions at Ganton are not elevated, and much of the fairway bunkering is not visible off the tee.  With more bands of gorse, even more of them would fall from site.  If his assertion was that little patches of very low-lying gorse should not have been removed, he may have a point, although I am unsure as to whether or not the aesthetic advantage outweighs the poor player's suffering.  The only plausible way I can envision gorse working off the tees at this course is if it had the same height as the heather in front of tees a la Swinley, Woking, Walton Heath, etc.  Even then, the heather remains fairly playable.  The only heather I saw at Ganton was on the 7th hole, behind the fairway bunker left and in the rough on the right past the treacherous bunker complex.  I think the introduction of the heather in front of the tees could be quite nice, but it is doubtful if heather would proliferate in this era, and with such a meager estalished basis.

Here are the pictures of the first six tee shots.  It is also relevant to note that Darwin's 'Historic GC's of the British Isles' has some hole discrepancies with the existing course, particularly the 12th, which was a par-3 over a tree row back in the day.  If the present fairway bunker were part of the original green complex, it would fit in the routing as the 13th fairway butts heads with the corner of the 12th at that spot anyway.  Thus, the first six holes to Wethered may not have been the first six today.


The 1st tee (sorry it was into the sun).


The 2nd tee.  Also a little uphill with below-average visibility of bunkering.


The 3rd, a driveable four with OB left and threatening cross hazard.  Tee is slightly elevated (2-3 feet).  Low lying vegetation could look nice here...picture frame if you like.


The 4th, credited to Colt (MacKenzie?), doesn't give the eye too much off the tee..


The gorse in front clearly works visually here at the short 5th hole.  Again, there is a significant elevation change from tee to green, though, and you can see the target and hazards.


The 6th has the pond to carry already, so some gorse to the right might block the safe route around for ladies or beginners.  The better player wants to carry the right fairway bunker for the best line in.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2002, 04:15:58 AM »
Here are some of the holes where I think the gorse works off the tee.  Ran mentioned the 13th, which looks to have been thinned in the past few years.  The 15th has been trimmed back recently, bringing the cross bunker into view a bit more.  See what you think.


This is the par-3 10th, which has an elevated tee box, keeping the gorse encroaching on the line of play from blocking the view.  You can see a bit of clearing (gray patch) on the left.


The sparse covering of gorse at the par-5 13th affects play only minimally here.


The 15th tee, with visible clearing in front.


The 18th tee shot, basically blind with gorse to be carried.  Accepting the forced carry (120 yards maybe), I think this hole both looks nice and works fine for playability because there are no fairway traps and the trees act as guides for the line of play.

Thinking about it from a maintenance standpoint and considering the quick growth habit of gorse, it is likely much easier and cost effective to remove gorse from in front of tees than constantly having to trim it back every year.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2002, 04:39:24 AM »
Chris, I can't see the pictures - if you'll post the links, one of the techies here will help get them up for all to see.

Your point on the 12th is very interesting as the existing two shotter seems out of character with the course - I wonder what the earlier version looked/played like? Perhaps they converted it into a two shotter because of the 10th hole?  ::)

How do you rate the 14th hole? What yardage did you play the 17th from?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2002, 04:42:44 AM »
Hopefully, that resolves all the picture issues.

Ran:

As far as the 14th goes, we played it as a 6-iron par-3 yesterday.  Looking at it from the back tees, I would be extremely afraid to pull the driver out of the bag with the big bunker and lone gorse bush waiting.  That said, I felt the green was much more receptive coming in from the left, so if you have the guts to go for it, you may be rewarded, but it has got to be about 250 carry at least.  The logical lay-up shot right of the cross bunker leaves you with a tough little pitch with the green running away.  I liked it.

#17 was about 245 yards, but both times I hit my driver and both times I ended up right of the right bunkers near the gorse and short. First time wind across LR and helping, second time negligible.

I was very disappointed with the mammoth cross bunker on #17 and #18 being non-existent these days after reading about it in several historical references.  Now, on the 17th, much of what must have been bunker is now finely mowed turf, and I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be a lay-up area or not.  My partner questioned if it could have been a temporary green, but the normal green doesn't figure to get too bogged down in the winter...Darwin and Dickinson would not be pleased with the fill in job, I fear.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2002, 06:52:37 AM »
Having absolutly no clue about this specifc situation I love a nice gorse or any plantlike or raparian carry. It really adds to the naturalness don't you think?

I also feel that 150 yds is the perfect forced carry. Mostly from playing the Lads from TOC and with elderly gentleman all the time, if you can't carry it that far, you are deserveing of the fate that awaits. And if you can't carry it on a consistent basis maybe bowling is a better game of choice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2002, 06:59:05 AM »
I'm with Adam, the holes where you find the native growth appear to be the most visually interesting and the holes without seem a little nondescript. Perhaps Wethered had a point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2002, 07:59:31 AM »
I will confess I posted this pror to seeing the pictures. I am floored by how beautiful it is begining on the fifth  8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2002, 08:38:43 AM »
While pictures from Yorkshire in March rarely show off a course, I think Wethered did indeed have a point and without the gorse, Ganton loses contrast/texture, especially as its most famous features - its deep bunkers - are built down into the ground and as Chris points out, you actually see little sand.

Thus, a certain pasture feeling can exist without the added contrast from the gorse and Paul Richards' attitude of "like and respect" but not love becomes a common reaction.

Hitting over gorse (if not overdone to the point of monotony) provides a sense of thrill that is otherwise lost.

Similarly, this reminds me of Rick Wolffe's post from last year and how Baltusrol was striving to re-introduce more native areas on the Lower course (as opposed to a parkland setting). I have seen some QUITE STRIKING pictures from the 1960s of a less green and more ruggedly presented Baltusrol. With enhanced visuals through greater contrast/texture, people would gain a greater appreciation/fondness of AWT's subtle architecture on the Lower, I do believe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2002, 01:06:35 PM »
Chris

Thanks a lot for the pics, you had lovely weather they bring back some good memories.  If you have any more and can post them, it would be appeciated!

As for the gorse.  It appears to have been thinned out in a few places, since I was there about 8 years ago.  I don't remember the 3rd being so open (fine hole though) and the 5th was a sea of gorse down to the green.  The gorse at the 13th looks to have been recently cleared, but at least it's still good and thick down the right.

And you're right, bring back that dune at the 17th/18th!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike O'Neill

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2002, 07:31:43 AM »
Ran,

This is a typical problem in the sand hills of Nebraska. The nice thing beyond the obvious aesthetic value of the native grass, is the ability to reduce the irrigated area of the course. I really think the key to it is to provide forward tees that allow the high handicapper a more than reasonable chance to get to the fairway. We tried to do that at Bayside in Nebraska, where there are several forced carries do to the ruggedness of the site. If we eliminated that ruggedness and replaced it with maintained turf, the net would have surely been a loss, not a gain. In some cases, the most forward tee is set in the fairway itself. Plus, if you are into golf ball hunting, you need only play Bayside for a season and you will never have to buy a ball the rest of your life.  :) (By the way, I blame players not using the proper tees for most of those lost balls. The fairways at Bayside are fairly wide.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2002, 03:23:50 AM »
Ran:

The pictures are great.

In fact, the subject of Ganton came up last week in Pinehurst.
Our discussion revolved around choosing courses to visit.  You
visit one because it's ranked on someone's Top 10, or Top 50, or whatever.  You play the course, enjoy it, etc etc., but you
walk away feeling that you must have missed something because others think so highly of it, and you just think it's OK or it's good, but not THAT good.  Of course, I brought up
Ganton.  I STILL don't get that one!  It's beautiful, tough,
interesting, and the bunkers are the deepest anywhere, but
#71 in the World?  I don't think so.  But maybe others are
starting to agree with me.  I see it fell from #61 to #71 from
1999 to 2001.  A few more lists and it'll be out of the top 100?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Turner

Re: How would this impact your opinion of Ganton?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2002, 07:01:35 AM »
Ganton is comfortably good enough to make the World 100.

The course has plenty of support as the best inland course in course in GB&I, and it's always ranked within the Top 20 in the GB&I rankings.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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