[Tim Nugent]

For those in the U.S. - has anyone thought about whether the passage of the Health Care (payment) Bill is going to raise operating costs at their clubs/courses?  At many of the clubs/courses I have been to, only a select few had health care coverage.  With the number of employees needed to operate a club/course, could this push many who are on the brink, over the edge?

I do know of mgmt co's who became a cheaper way to go for muni's because they didn't have to cover all the employees like the muni's did.  Will this spell trouble for mgmt. co's competive advantage?

[Adam Clayman]

Or will employer insurance plans become non-existent?

[Jud_T]

So much for Health Care Reform....What this really is is Health Care Expansion to the tune of $930 Billion.  Anyone who really believes that this will actually reduce the deficit, I'll have a double of whatever you're drinking....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
I think the threshold for small business is 100 employees.

[Jud_T]

Tim,
I think the threshold for small business is 100 employees.

I think it's actually 50...

[Cliff Hamm]

I enjoy OT, but this thread is only headed for big trouble...

[Gary Slatter]

Instead of spending $100,000.00 for cancer treatment people will be able to use the money to join golf courses.  
The next generation will appreciate your sacrifices, your Doctors may return to their native countries.

I agree this topic is leading to big trouble!  But please accept my congratulations!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

The real question is, how will the health care "reform" help us read greens with micro contours, because I for one am so pissed off I can't see straight......

[Ian Andrew]

I've been asked at many ASGCA meetings about our “socialized” Canadian medical system and all the pitfalls, expenses and waiting times. People are always surprised at the answers.

I would suggest you look up the cost per person for treatment in comparing our two countries.

America will always have an independent alternative to universal health care – if you can afford it you will still jump the cue. That’s the one thing that we “socialists” can not do in Canada. That’s the one reason Canadian’s sometimes head south.

For those who talk about taxes, one of the ASGCA members and I compared all our taxes and we both pay on similar incomes, once you factor in the heavy cost of health insurance, it was far closer than I expected.

The “Socialist”  

[Bruce Katona]

If you lease your employees (outside of key managers and the pro/GM) from employee leasing services, you eliminate this headache as the leasing company deals with this issue.  You also don't need to deal with HR issues, except for senior management.

Cost of leasing is more than the hourly wage & benefits, but the overall costs and headaches are eliminated.

[Tim Nugent]

Cliff, it isn't intended to be an OT political rant - I'll save those for others. Rather, just connectiing the dots.  If you have an industry that needs large numbers of low paid workers (under $88,000/yr) and now require that some of those employers add 20-30% to their cost of labor, it just seems elementary that there will be an impact to that industry.  And even those whose employers are exempted from paying, they will still be mandated to buy insurance and get some help fromthe Gov. (you and me paying more in taxes).  But I never saw where the Gov. would guarantee to cover all, so they will need a raise to just break even, hence anyway you slice it, costs will go up.

I wonder if the big mgmt. co's will start forming little LLC's for each of their properties to get around the small business maximum.

Personally, this doesn't directly affect me - my wife carries our insurance, her employer is a big constr. co that does only gov. contracts so they just pass the costs through.  Being a GCA, no way I could afford my own health insurance

Ian - nice to hear from ya -eh?  I hear the same from my client in Finland.  Great thing about those long cues, if they have to wait long enough, you don't have to treat them - they're dead.

Bruce, all costs in "leasing" are just passed through - w/a mark-up.

On the bright side, think of all the more doctors that will be needed to treeat the 35 million minions.  They will all need clubs to join.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

Since the HR3200 said (at least at one time, I haven't read the reconciliations) that the govt can set fees for all doctors, they may not be able to afford country clubs any more.

[JESII]

Jeff,

I think the actual wording was "we're going to pay the doctors less"...

[John Kirk]

Starve the beast!

[Chris Cupit]

I am in the business and have about 70 employees.  No one really is sure what will happen but I am not too worried.  I'll either figure a way to keep my costs in line or sell

We are going into our 38th year and have always provided health care.  As prices have increased I have lowered my contribution but today I offer all employees working an average of 30 hours a week or more health insurance, dental and small life insurance policy.  I pay 66% of the cost and they pay the rest. 

I will wait and see what happens.  I do not know if I have to cover every employee (full and part time?), what amount I have to pay or any of the particulars.  I have always tried to compensate employees fairly and I have many employees who have worked for more than a decade with me.  I think we are doing things right and I do think that many small and mid size businesses will do whatever it takes to stay in business--yes that may mean outsourcing parts of my operation in order to fall under the 50 employee mandate or reducing employees to part time status if that is a way around the mandates.

This is stupid and a shame when companies that have always tried to do the right thing must now even consider actions that hurt many of the people this legislation was supposed to help.  I think it was avowed socialist Samuel Gompers who said something to the effect that "the greatest disservice a business can do for their employees, is to fail to operate at a profit".  It's a shame our current group of socialists don't share his wisdom

PS  and OT  We needed to address the problem of how we fund health care in our country.  I feel that as a wealthy nation we should try and find a way to provide basic healthcare for our citizens and I am willing to pay a little more myself.  However, I think our Congress is incapable of any serious action.  I despise all that ruling class stands for and am heartened by the fact that I only have another 25 years or so to go before none of tis matters and I don't have children to whom I would owe an incredible apology to for our greed and selfishness.  Give me a freebie and I'm sticking it to my kids and grandkids--wow--we should be so proud of ourselves

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,

Since the HR3200 said (at least at one time, I haven't read the reconciliations) that the govt can set fees for all doctors, they may not be able to afford country clubs any more.

That's not quite correct, the bill never attempted to set Doctor's fees.  Doctors were only going to be asked to accept lower than market rates for their services, just as they are only asked to do so for Medicare, and it would only have applied under the public-option which never made it to the present bill. Doctor's are no less free today to charge what they want and to accept whatever patients they want, nothing has changed.

[Eric Strulowitz]

For those in the U.S. - has anyone thought about whether the passage of the Health Care (payment) Bill is going to raise operating costs at their clubs/courses?  At many of the clubs/courses I have been to, only a select few had health care coverage.  With the number of employees needed to operate a club/course, could this push many who are on the brink, over the edge?

I do know of mgmt co's who became a cheaper way to go for muni's because they didn't have to cover all the employees like the muni's did.  Will this spell trouble for mgmt. co's competive advantage?

Tim, I actually have pondered this also.  As many golf courses are small businesses, there is no doubt that healthcare costs are going to factor into their fees.   I see restaurants, golf courses, really everything we consume going up.   And this means layoffs, or less hiring.  Golf is suffering now, I don't see how the industry can handle higher green fees, monthly dues, etc.  So we will have to deal with less services, less maintenance, etc.   And maybe see more course closures.  Like this great country, maybe golf has long seen its best days.

[Michael Dugger]

I am in the business and have about 70 employees.  No one really is sure what will happen but I am not too worried.  I'll either figure a way to keep my costs in line or sell

We are going into our 38th year and have always provided health care.  As prices have increased I have lowered my contribution but today I offer all employees working an average of 30 hours a week or more health insurance, dental and small life insurance policy.  I pay 66% of the cost and they pay the rest. 

I will wait and see what happens.  I do not know if I have to cover every employee (full and part time?), what amount I have to pay or any of the particulars.  I have always tried to compensate employees fairly and I have many employees who have worked for more than a decade with me.  I think we are doing things right and I do think that many small and mid size businesses will do whatever it takes to stay in business--yes that may mean outsourcing parts of my operation in order to fall under the 50 employee mandate or reducing employees to part time status if that is a way around the mandates.

This is stupid and a shame when companies that have always tried to do the right thing must now even consider actions that hurt many of the people this legislation was supposed to help.  I think it was avowed socialist Samuel Gompers who said something to the effect that "the greatest disservice a business can do for their employees, is to fail to operate at a profit".  It's a shame our current group of socialists don't share his wisdom

PS  and OT  We needed to address the problem of how we fund health care in our country.  I feel that as a wealthy nation we should try and find a way to provide basic healthcare for our citizens and I am willing to pay a little more myself.  However, I think our Congress is incapable of any serious action.  I despise all that ruling class stands for and am heartened by the fact that I only have another 25 years or so to go before none of tis matters and I don't have children to whom I would owe an incredible apology to for our greed and selfishness.  Give me a freebie and I'm sticking it to my kids and grandkids--wow--we should be so proud of ourselves

I want to work for you.  Best post I've read in a long time...amen to you, Chris.

[Carl Nichols]

So much for Health Care Reform....What this really is is Health Care Expansion to the tune of $930 Billion.  Anyone who really believes that this will actually reduce the deficit, I'll have a double of whatever you're drinking....

The entire package *might* reduce the deficit, but only because it includes significant tax increases, including on unearned income for people making more than $250,000.  I would add the effect of those tax increases to Tim's question, i.e., what effect (if any) will those higher taxes have on the golf industry?  

[John Moore II]

Tim,
I think the threshold for small business is 100 employees.

I think it's actually 50...

Yes, the number for small businesses is 50 employees. I've never worked for a club that had 50 employees. Actually, my two jobs as a pro were at courses with 'management companies' and I'm not sure that even among the whole company did they have 50 employees; though one I can't comment on for certain given that they had 2 clubs in NC and one on Penn. Most individually owned courses have 25 employees at max. They will not be affected by this change.

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff, it isn't intended to be an OT political rant - I'll save those for others. Rather, just connectiing the dots.  If you have an industry that needs large numbers of low paid workers (under $88,000/yr) and now require that some of those employers add 20-30% to their cost of labor, it just seems elementary that there will be an impact to that industry.  And even those whose employers are exempted from paying, they will still be mandated to buy insurance and get some help fromthe Gov. (you and me paying more in taxes).  But I never saw where the Gov. would guarantee to cover all, so they will need a raise to just break even, hence anyway you slice it, costs will go up.

I wonder if the big mgmt. co's will start forming little LLC's for each of their properties to get around the small business maximum.

Personally, this doesn't directly affect me - my wife carries our insurance, her employer is a big constr. co that does only gov. contracts so they just pass the costs through.  Being a GCA, no way I could afford my own health insurance

Ian - nice to hear from ya -eh?  I hear the same from my client in Finland.  Great thing about those long cues, if they have to wait long enough, you don't have to treat them - they're dead.

Bruce, all costs in "leasing" are just passed through - w/a mark-up.

On the bright side, think of all the more doctors that will be needed to treeat the 35 million minions.  They will all need clubs to join.

Tim...after I posted I did think that your original post was absolutely fine.  Unfortunately, my feeling was that it would warp into the usual political rants and words like socialism, totalitarianism, government control, freedom, etc. would proliferate.  You are absolutely right that the impact on golf courses is a fair topic.

[Bill_McBride]

I've been asked at many ASGCA meetings about our “socialized” Canadian medical system and all the pitfalls, expenses and waiting times. People are always surprised at the answers.

I would suggest you look up the cost per person for treatment in comparing our two countries.

America will always have an independent alternative to universal health care – if you can afford it you will still jump the cue. That’s the one thing that we “socialists” can not do in Canada. That’s the one reason Canadian’s sometimes head south.

For those who talk about taxes, one of the ASGCA members and I compared all our taxes and we both pay on similar incomes, once you factor in the heavy cost of health insurance, it was far closer than I expected.

The “Socialist”  

My two college buddies who moved to Vancouver and became college professors after their Vietnam army service have always told me there is nothing wrong with the Canadian national health system.

I think in the UK you can purchase supplementary insurance on top of their national health plan.

[Kalen Braley]

Either way,

I hope this is indeed the 1st step to real reform in America on my many levels....that and real corporate responsiblity.

[Craig Sweet]

" If you have an industry that needs large numbers of low paid workers (under $88,000/yr) and now require that some of those employers add 20-30% to their cost of labor,"

I just spewed my milk out my nose on that one!  If you consider a "low paid workers" someone earning as much as $88,000 a year you are living in a world much, much different than mine...

[RJ_Daley]

I am in the business and have about 70 employees.  No one really is sure what will happen but I am not too worried.  I'll either figure a way to keep my costs in line or sell

We are going into our 38th year and have always provided health care.  As prices have increased I have lowered my contribution but today I offer all employees working an average of 30 hours a week or more health insurance, dental and small life insurance policy.  I pay 66% of the cost and they pay the rest. 

I will wait and see what happens.  I do not know if I have to cover every employee (full and part time?), what amount I have to pay or any of the particulars.  I have always tried to compensate employees fairly and I have many employees who have worked for more than a decade with me.  I think we are doing things right and I do think that many small and mid size businesses will do whatever it takes to stay in business--yes that may mean outsourcing parts of my operation in order to fall under the 50 employee mandate or reducing employees to part time status if that is a way around the mandates.

This is stupid and a shame when companies that have always tried to do the right thing must now even consider actions that hurt many of the people this legislation was supposed to help.  I think it was avowed socialist Samuel Gompers who said something to the effect that "the greatest disservice a business can do for their employees, is to fail to operate at a profit".  It's a shame our current group of socialists don't share his wisdom

PS  and OT  We needed to address the problem of how we fund health care in our country.  I feel that as a wealthy nation we should try and find a way to provide basic healthcare for our citizens and I am willing to pay a little more myself.  However, I think our Congress is incapable of any serious action.  I despise all that ruling class stands for and am heartened by the fact that I only have another 25 years or so to go before none of tis matters and I don't have children to whom I would owe an incredible apology to for our greed and selfishness.  Give me a freebie and I'm sticking it to my kids and grandkids--wow--we should be so proud of ourselves

If you offer your employees health insurance:

* You must cover no less than 72.5% of the cheapest health plan you offer for individuals, and no less than 65% for families.
* You must automically enroll every employee in a health plan with the lowest employee premium, unless they opt out.

If you choose not to provide health coverage:

*You must pay the Health Choices Commissioner (the person in charge of the SHOP exchange fund) 8% of the average wages paid during a predefined period of enrollment. They charge you a lower percentage if your annual payroll is less than $400,000.

From your first two paragraphs, I'd say you won't have any major problems.

Interesting that when social sec., was enacted, along with unemployment insurance pool mandates of participaton large and small employers all had the same fearful proclamaitons that it would force them to lay off, raise prices, and all the same stuff you are hearing now.  We survived as did the programs because they are a process THAT CAN AND MUST BE ADJUSTED FROM TIME TO TIME TO MATCH EVOLVING WORLD AND NATIONAL ECONOMIC CONDITIONS -  Just like all goverment initiatives from defense procurement to dept of Ed.  that is what Gov., does, create programs and adjust...

I think it is too bad we didn't have the will to go with a "medicare for all" from the start.  It would have had fewer moving parts, and would be the best way to manage costs, though no country on earth has been able to stem the rise in costs to varying degrees.  The thing is our costs are the worlds highest by large factors under status quo, which became a crisis that one group finally had the political will and just barely enough votes to pass.   

Chris, it seems to me that as a small business employer, you are doing the right thing, and I'm going to bet you will continue to, and you will be better off in 5 years than you are now as you adjust to new practices .  Just my H.O.

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