[Tom MacWood]

Before the North Shore discovery it was thought Westhampton was Seth Raynor's first solo design. The jury is still out on NS, and there seems to be some serious questions about Westhampton too.

Here is a copy of the map of Westhampton and a link to an aerial of the course today. The bunkering of the course today is very different from the plan attributed to Raynor. Was the Raynor plan a design or redesign plan, and was it ever fully executed?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=westhampton&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.909425,72.070313&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Westhampton,+Suffolk,+New+York&ll=40.810431,-72.656708&spn=0.022997,0.035191&t=k&z=15

[Chip Gaskins]

Someone posted a few months back, who was a member there I think, that they were about to restore it.  I assume the club would have all the correct historical info if they were going to spend millions to restore it.  Maybe not?

[TEPaul]

"The jury is still out on NS....."


What is the "JURY" that is still out on North Shore? 

Is the JURY on the architectural history of North Shore GC the North Shore GC itself or is it Tom MacWood?   

[Robert Emmons]

Westhampton is hiring a new super now...not sure about a planned renovation or restoration....RHE

[Tom MacWood]

"The jury is still out on NS....."


What is the "JURY" that is still out on North Shore? 

Is the JURY on the architectural history of North Shore GC the North Shore GC itself or is it Tom MacWood?   

The jury is till out on wether it was a Raynor solo job or a collaboration between Raynor/White or Raynor/CBM/White.

[George_Bahto]

There is a Master Plan in place as of about 2 years ago based mostly on the original course with a few slioght modernizations

[TEPaul]

"The jury is still out on wether on it was a Raynor solo job or a collaboration between Raynor/White or Raynor/CBM/White."


Again, who is the "JURY?"     

It seems like the Club and everyone else is satisfied with the recent historical material that makes it clear Raynor was the architect (perhaps with a little help and advice from his friend CBM (Whigam?)    with Robert White working for the club as their greenskeeper/construction foreman.

[Tom MacWood]

The club was satisfied when they thought Tillinghast had designed their golf course. If the club, and others, are satisfied that is great, but I don't believe we know all the answers at this point. By the way this thread is on Westhampton, if you are interested in NS there's another thread...

[Tom MacWood]

There is a Master Plan in place as of about 2 years ago based mostly on the original course with a few slioght modernizations

George
What proof do you have that Raynor designed the course in 1914?

[TEPaul]

Who is we?   


When the club thought Tillinghast designed the course they had no contemporaneous club administrative material available from 1914/15 about the architect of the course but now they do and it's very clear from it that Raynor was the designer and Robert White was the greenkeeper/construction foreman.

[Tom MacWood]

Bottom of the map shown in the other thread says:

"Rough drawing of present course taken from Seth J. Raynor’s original mapo which hangs in the proshop (at that time)"

the 9th hole is based on the .......  At Lido - Barker?? how could Barker come up with this one - I'll post a photo of the Lido hole and the WH  tomorrow

the Short is prototypical   Macd / Raynor       - check it on Google Earth for details - huge green

I have a blurb that states:

"Raynor, assisted by former Garden City Golf Club Professional, H. H. Barker, responded with a 6171-yard layout that incorporated architectural ideas based on outstanding hole of the British Isles."



Then from the club histor

Westhampton Country Club 100 Year History
by Hampton P. Howell

page 73

Chapter II THE CLUB ON POTUNK LANE - 1915-1944

A. 1915 to 1930

(I’ll skip some of the less impoortant stuff - mostly about who owned which lots and such)

By 1913 pressure had grown for an 180-hole course, and also such and such wanted his land back etc. (which they had been using elsewhere).   Various locations were discussed .... blah blah blah .   It was finally decided to, however, to put the clubhouse where it is now situated.  (Discussions about issues in the meetings here).

William C. Atwater, Sr. Purchased the property for $122,000 and leased it to the Club for $5,478 a year under a 10-year lease plan, also loaning $60,000 to build the course. James C Rosser came over from England and supervised the construction in 1915. As the Stock Exchange was closed in the early days of World War I, several of the members William Pell, brother in law of Henry Howell worked as laborers on the course at $4 a day.

The course itself was designed by Seth J. Raynor and constructed by Charles L. House, Princeton ‘09 and nephew of Lucius Beers, included digging of the drainage canal along the 4th and 10th holes. Mr. House also built the West Bay pool in 1915 (g b: whatever that is). Mr. Raynor had designed courses under Charles Blair MacDonald (sic), who laid out the National Golf Links.

The property for the 1st, 18th 2nd and 17th holes of the Westhampton course was purchased from the West Bay Co and E H Bishop ..... it then document who owned other portions of the course from “who” etc ..... a long paragraph ensued about this stuff.

Seth J. Raynor’s original map shows a course of 6171 yards whereas today’s course is 6393: it then goes on to list each hole’s yardage according to SETH J. RAYNOR’S MAP    This paragraph continues, noting the various changes to the original course over the years

a write up form the Hampton Chronicle followed and then the club history moved on to their social history         

I think there is such detailed information in this club history to satisfy anyone (and I cut out a lot of minusha)

George
I've seen the club history...that is where I got the map. There is not a single mention of Barker in the club history. Do you have any contemporaneous information beyond the club history?

"Raynor, assisted by former Garden City Golf Club Professional, H. H. Barker, responded with a 6171-yard layout that incorporated architectural ideas based on outstanding hole of the British Isles."

What is the source of this blurb?

Do you honestly believe this short hole is prototypical Raynor? The bunkering sure looks like the old 12th GCGC to me and unlike any other Short produced by Raynor and/or Macdonald.

Why are there so many differences between the plan attributed to Raynor and the course as it exists today.

[George_Bahto]

The blurb I have is directly from notes given to me by Bill Quirin who at that time was assembling infor mation for his great book(s).

"To design its new golf the course the club turned to Seth Raynor, a native of Southampton who had been Charles Blair Macdonald's engineer at The National and Piping Rock, and was just beginning to design courses on his own. Raynor, assisted by former Garden City Golf Club professional H. H. Barker, responded with a 6171-yard layout that incorporated architectural ideas based on outstanding holes in the British Islas. Westhampton, like most courses designed by Macdonald and or Raynor, had a "Redan," a "Short," and a "Biarritz."

end of that paragraph - again this are from his original notes, not from his book. When I first began my researchBilly was insrumental in getting me going (as well as Dick Donovan (RIP) - rare book dealer). Bill kindly gave me all his information on the Macdonald Raynor and Banks courses he had visited.

That re-done "map" was on page 77 of the club history and along the bottom it said:


"Rough drawing of present course taken from Seth J. Raynor’s original mapo which hangs in the proshop"


the hole photo you posted is the 3rd - it is a sunken version of the Eden ( very weird - one of a kind), but fun

the Short hole is #11

[Tom MacWood]

George
Why is there such a difference between the golf course as built and the map attributed to Raynor? Was that plan a design or a redesign, and was ever fully executed? The course has completely different bunkering scheme...reminiscent of GCGC.


Here is the article from early 1915 reporting Barker as the designer and Raynor the constructor?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

How many times do you read something on a subject you are completely aware of, and find faults in the document.

You guys must obviously take that in to account when comparing something like Club Meeting minutes and newspaper articles.

[Tom MacWood]

MSS
I don't understand your question.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Tom-

My question is this: Why do you take the article as Gospel?

Too many times have I read articles about topics and the writer has alot of his information wrong.

For example: The New York Times wrote an article on a golf course in a famous part of the world for golf a few years ago. I am extremely familiar with the club, and when reading the article it was amazing how much information was off.

-Mike (not the Mike you guys know)

[Tom MacWood]

I don't believe anyone is claiming the article is the last word...it is just one piece of the puzzle, albeit a pretty compelling piece.

The title of the thread is "What is the story behind Westhampton?"  I started this tread because I'm curious why there are so many inconsistencies with the commonly held story.

1. The magazine article reporting Barker designed the course and Raynor built it.
2. Dr. Q's blurb that Raynor and Barker collaborated.
3. The unattributed, undated map
4. The fact the course as built is quite different than that map
5. The fact that the course as built contains a number of GCGC-like features
6. Apparently no contemporaneous reports citing Raynor as designer

It seems to me there must be more to the story. What do you think?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Tom-

You may be right that there is more to the story, and I hope you enjoy researching Westhampton.

All I am saying is that if I were researching a subject I would be careful to be base my conclusions on Newspaper articles.

Mike

[Tom MacWood]

Thanks for the advice.

[Tim Nugent]

Seems like these "attributed to" threads suffer from looking at events using definitions from today.  Is it possible that a big part of the puzzle stems from the fact fact that today we have a hard and fast notion of lines of responsibility in developing a course.  An architect does "A", the engineer "B", an agronomist "C", the construction guys "D" etc.  But back in the day, it seems that there was more of a blurring of titles/responsibilities. 

Historians out there -  when did the term Golf Course Architect make it into the modern lexicon?

[TEPaul]

Mike Sweeny:

I feel it is essential to carefully consider the accuracy of newspaper articles against club meeting minutes of the subject time if they are available. I've said that often on here and I've also mentioned often that to do that effectively a good researcher/analyst must first establish a good working relationship with the subject club so he can carefully consider club administative records like board and meeting minutes.

You will notice that Tom MacWood's response to that point of yours is that he doesn't seem to understand the point or question. What does that say?

I don't know how many on here have served on club boards or committees but I have for years and I have yet to see a club's board or committee purposefully report or record some fact as wrong about what they are doing or planning. I've been taking the Green Committee meeting minutes for about a decade and I'm not aware that has happened and if there is some mistake in meeting minutes it is corrected when the minutes are read and approved at the next meeting.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Thank you for sharing your research expertise. Do you have any insight specifically on the Westhampton question?

Why is the golf course as built and the plan attributed to Raynor so different? Was that plan for a new design or a redesign, and was it ever fully executed?

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