News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« on: March 28, 2002, 05:13:23 AM »
I was sorry to miss Fazio's talk with the Golf Week raters on Tuesday in Pinehurst but my wife was working and I was at home locked in mortal combat with Baby MacKenzie.

What were your thoughts on what he had to say? What impressed you? What surprised you?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2002, 08:22:16 AM »
I'm surprised there hasn't been any comments.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Morrissett

Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2002, 01:49:56 PM »
Fazio's talk was fascinating.  It was consistent with the book he wrote a year or two ago.  He said he did not study the old architects.  He has done no foreign work.  He has seen very few courses he didn't design -- he doesn't have the time.  He thinks the Augusta National changes will equal about one stroke a round.  He thinks Pine Valley is the best he has seen and also thinks very highly of The Ocean Course at Kiawah.

He seems to look almost entirely forward and does not think much about what he has done in the past.  These are my words and not his, but he seems to approach each project as a clean canvass and concentrates on doing the absolute best he can on it.  He doesn't think about past canvasses.  One reason for this is that there have been so many regulatory changes that so much of what was done in the past could not be done today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Nick_Ficorelli

Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2002, 04:01:24 PM »
He also claims that he'd like to build a course on a parking lot...didn't he do that at at Glen Club already?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2002, 07:50:26 AM »
Nick- Your right. He kinda did . Glenview naval air station was just a huge parking lot where they landed planes, sometimes.

Willow Hill is a former garbage dump, right next door. And all the land used to belong to the Catholic church which maybe having a fire sale shortly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2002, 07:44:32 PM »
Fazio's presentation centered around Fazio himself, but not so much about his architecture and design practices. I expected to learn a little about his tendency to vertically shape fairways to acheive a dished-out sort of look. Instead he denied having any real tendencies at all.

He has a large family who means a great deal to him. He does not to spend more than twenty (20) evenings a year away from his family. He therefore will entertain only one west coast job every couple of years. All his children are now in college or older, one of which works for him. He pays his many employees well.

He revealed a couple of inconsistencies. On the one hand, he once again reiterated that he did not study the classic architects, yet on the other hand he said that he enjoys analyzing the "routings" of many of the great old courses. [He believes routing is crucial, and has one hundred percent control over the routing of his designs. He said that he will never tire of the creative aspects of routing a plot of land, even if it is a parking lot] Nevertheless, Fazio claims that Mackenzie erred in finishing Cypress away from the ocean with its anti-climatic par 4. He said he would have routed Pebble Beach so that the middle holes would run from left to right with the ocean along the left. This configuration would be more demanding for the great golfer and not as penal for the mid-handicapper. He admitted that Pine Valley is the only course he does not think he can improve. Thus, he must study the routing of the classics.

Secondly, Fazio was questioned whether he utilized a player for "shot values" when designing a course, just as MacKenzie designed Augusta based upon the shots of Bobby Jones? Fazio denied ever using such a player for assistance; however, later he described how he asked a kid, who was ultra-long, to bomb drives on hole 18 at Augusta to get an accurate read as to where he needed to extend the tee and/or move the bunkers.  ???

I got the feeling that Fazio actually does study the classic architects and their practices, but simply will not acknowledge such. Perhaps its his ego, I don't know?

Although Fazio has 18 courses in Golfweek's Top 100 Modern, Fazio claims that he knows of at least 30 other courses which he has designed that are better than the 18 on the list.  ::)

He further claimed that some of his clients are too hung up on the adage that a "great golf course requires you to use all the clubs in your bag". A Merion member hired Fazio to design a course for him. This client was too concerned that this course would not be 'great' because it lacked length variety. Fazio claimed that he asked his client whether he thought Merion was a great course. He affirmed emphatically. Then, he asked this client how many eight irons he typically hit on the approaches at Merion. Knowing the answer would be a half dozen or so, Fazio said, the client got his point!

The Shadow Creek story was fascinating!

In the end, although I do not often agree with Fazio, I do not fault him for what he has become in the design business either. There is big money out there, and evidently he has the name and the product that people want. I like his designs while I'm playing them, I just don't remember them after I leave. I just don't think he should be hired to restore or alter classic courses. But remember, that is not his fault that memberships are running for his services. They certainly know what they are NOT going to get!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2002, 08:33:33 PM »
Dunlop, Being one of the more pronounced Dr. T. Fazio detractors, I can only say that you have very eloquently stated your opinion.

It makes me understand Dr. T. Fazio even better!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2002, 09:04:22 PM »
Dunlop,

That is one of the best write ups about Mr Fazio since I started posting on this site.

When I say best I don't mean that you rave about him but you wrote an honest short essay about the man.

Cheers


Brian Phillips
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2002, 07:07:43 AM »
Fazio is in the process of constructing a second course at Forest Creek in Pinehurst. We visited  nine holes which have been completed and it looks different than the other Fazio works which I have seen. The bunkers especially appear very natural with wispy broom grass surrounds. Perhaps he got a little mixed up,  for these bunkers would have looked more in keeping with Merion's renovation. :(  Nevertheless, the second course at Forest Creek looks great so far!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bryan_Pennington

Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2002, 07:51:21 AM »
Dunlop,

Can you comment more on the Forest Creek new 9?  It seems that the new 18 has been under construction for quite some time.  Last time I was at Forest Creek 3 or 4 holes were completed (grassed and ready to play) and were being used as an executive / practice course.  Any thoughts on tying in the exisitng new holes with the remaining 3rd nine.  Did you see the routing or plans for the 4th nine?  Just curious as I like the original 18.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2002, 08:22:05 AM »
Dunlop -

The "wispy Fazio" first appeared on the Seaside nine at Sea Island several years ago.

I like it very much.

The problem, of course, is that once you get past these aesthetic issues, there isn't a whole lot to talk about.

Bob

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2002, 08:24:58 AM »
I believe that holes 1 through 4 are completed as is. Something like holes 5 through 10 need some zoning permits before construction. Then 11 through 14 and 18 are complete, while 15, 16, and 17 need permits or such as well. It was only a quick ride through, so I may be wrong. Jim Lewis will set us straight as soon as he sees the post.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2002, 05:39:39 PM »
The thing that stuck with me most about Fazio's talk was
that he makes a lot of money, pays his people a lot of
money, and even gives some of it to charity.

'Nuf said?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Tom Fazio's Pinehurst talk?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2002, 10:59:05 AM »
Bob,

The "wispy Fazio" looks in keeping with the links type course at Sea Island. But at Pinehurst, it was sort of refreshing, because I simply do not see this look incorporated there.

Hope all is well with Athens CC! I spoke with Mike Young some last week, who is good buddies with our Super, Mac Crouch. I am looking forward to dropping by the next time I'm in Augusta, or else in Dec. at the Society meeting.

Dunlop
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »