A few George Thomas questions...

[Neil_Crafter]

Bob
No doubt he could be a prickly SOB if he wanted to. In 1930 he was corresponding with Tom Simpson from South America so he appears on friendly terms with him. Behr also. We know he at least had a drink with Donald Ross in 1933 at Claremont CC. So he wasn't antisocial as far as other archies were concerned. I think he felt he had a particular axe to grind against Thomas.

Chip
No sign of Hunter in those pics, sure, good chance that Hunter was also similarly impressed with Bell's bunkering. The early California bunkering did not doubt contain elements of both Hunter and Mackenzie, how much of each is anyone's guess, but it would be fair to say they were an amalgam of their thinking.

[Tom MacWood]

Chip
Mackenzie brought that style of bunker with him to California. And Thomas and Bell's similar style predates Mackenzie coming to California. I think it is possible Bell developed that style while working with William Watson. Watson did travel overseas and could have easily been influenced by Colt, Mackenzie, et al. So its possible that California style was influenced by Mackenzie, but not in the way we may think.

[Josh Smith]

Some of MacKenzie's first hundred bunkers built in US.  California Golf Club. See also Meadow Club and Claremont CC...

[David Stamm]

Chip
Mackenzie brought that style of bunker with him to California. And Thomas and Bell's similar style predates Mackenzie coming to California. I think it is possible Bell developed that style while working with William Watson. Watson did travel overseas and could have easily been influenced by Colt, Mackenzie, et al. So its possible that California style was influenced by Mackenzie, but not in the way we may think.

Tom, your theory is certainly plausible, but I have seen quite a few vintage WW course photos, and they look nothing like BB's style. In fact, from what I've seen of San Diego CC (before BB got there) and Olympic Ocean after they first opened, they look totally opposite.

[Sean_Tully]

Chip
Mackenzie brought that style of bunker with him to California. And Thomas and Bell's similar style predates Mackenzie coming to California. I think it is possible Bell developed that style while working with William Watson. Watson did travel overseas and could have easily been influenced by Colt, Mackenzie, et al. So its possible that California style was influenced by Mackenzie, but not in the way we may think.

Tom, your theory is certainly plausible, but I have seen quite a few vintage WW course photos, and they look nothing like BB's style. In fact, from what I've seen of San Diego CC (before BB got there) and Olympic Ocean after they first opened, they look totally opposite.

William Watson is one of the unsung golf architects of the early 1900's. I would give him some credit for taking golf from what we have called the "dark ages" and bring to up to speed, but just short of the "golden age". As David states above, I too would have to say that his bunkering style in the early to mid 1920's would do little to inspire what Billy Bell was able to create. Who influenced Bell is a very good question and if had to guess I would have to go with Max Behr.

Tully

[Sean_A]

Dr Mac certainly was at least half way down the line with the frilly bunkers.  His Troon Portland course and W-S-M used to have a style which could have easily developed into the really ornate California look.

Ciao 

[Chip Gaskins]

William Watson is one of the unsung golf architects of the early 1900's. I would give him some credit for taking golf from what we have called the "dark ages" and bring to up to speed, but just short of the "golden age". As David states above, I too would have to say that his bunkering style in the early to mid 1920's would do little to inspire what Billy Bell was able to create. Who influenced Bell is a very good question and if had to guess I would have to go with Max Behr.

Tully

Sean-

Do we have any good pictures of Behr's bunker work?  Is there much left at Hacienda, Rancho Santa Fe or Lakeside today or are there any good pictures to show his early work.

Josh-

When was that picture of Cal Club taken that you posted?

Chip

[Rick Sides]

I think Mackenzie built some of the most interesting bunkers in all of golf.  Two ideas Mackenzie used for his design of bunkers were various cloud formations he saw in the sky and also military entrenchment bunkers used during WW1.  There was an old article in Golf Illustrated from Mackenzie in which he explains how his knowledge of trenches built during the war translated to his bunker construction on golf courses.

[David Stamm]

Chip
Mackenzie brought that style of bunker with him to California. And Thomas and Bell's similar style predates Mackenzie coming to California. I think it is possible Bell developed that style while working with William Watson. Watson did travel overseas and could have easily been influenced by Colt, Mackenzie, et al. So its possible that California style was influenced by Mackenzie, but not in the way we may think.

Tom, your theory is certainly plausible, but I have seen quite a few vintage WW course photos, and they look nothing like BB's style. In fact, from what I've seen of San Diego CC (before BB got there) and Olympic Ocean after they first opened, they look totally opposite.

William Watson is one of the unsung golf architects of the early 1900's. I would give him some credit for taking golf from what we have called the "dark ages" and bring to up to speed, but just short of the "golden age". As David states above, I too would have to say that his bunkering style in the early to mid 1920's would do little to inspire what Billy Bell was able to create. Who influenced Bell is a very good question and if had to guess I would have to go with Max Behr.

Tully

Hmmm. I'm not sure about that either. Photos of Behr's bunkers at RSFGC, Victoria, Lakeside and others at the beginning show little resemblance to the flamboyance of Bell's style. Behr's bunkers typically showed more simplicity.

[Sean_Tully]

William Watson is one of the unsung golf architects of the early 1900's. I would give him some credit for taking golf from what we have called the "dark ages" and bring to up to speed, but just short of the "golden age". As David states above, I too would have to say that his bunkering style in the early to mid 1920's would do little to inspire what Billy Bell was able to create. Who influenced Bell is a very good question and if had to guess I would have to go with Max Behr.

Tully

Sean-

Do we have any good pictures of Behr's bunker work?  Is there much left at Hacienda, Rancho Santa Fe or Lakeside today or are there any good pictures to show his early work.

Josh-

When was that picture of Cal Club taken that you posted?

Chip

Chip-

The reason I mention Behr is the fact that he was one of the earlier proponents of natural aesthetics in golf course design. In 1925, Behr and Bell had just finished Oakmont down in SOCal and some pictures of the bunkers made it into  the USGA Green Section. I could not recognize the course and had to get some help from Tommy and Geoff. Funny that I had just been doing some research into bunkers and such and found that reference to natural bunkers. There are some earlier references to naturalizing bunkers by Colt and Alison but those were both back east and in the UK. I'm far far from understanding  Bell's early history and I'm sure with some digging more connections can be made, but for now based on what little I have I would lean towards Behr as his influence.

One would have to think that the bunkers style  that Bell used being so new and different would have been mentioned at some point in the papers or magazines.


That American Golf Course Construction advert that Josh posted is from 1928.

David-

Just saw your post. I am grasping for straws and thinking outside the box. Just not sure who or what could have influenced this style. When I refer to Behr it would be more from the thought process than the work he had in the ground. I think that we have both taken Watson out of the running, so who does that leave us with. John Duncan Dunn, Norman Macbeth, and of course others. The list is pretty short. I'm not up on my Southern California courses or Bell for that matter. With some digging into Bell, where he was from, background info and who he worked for should start to answer some questions. I have some of his adverts and will look at the dates to see what I have to get a time frame to his bunker style. I just need a lot more pics and a time line of courses.

Tully

Tully

[Sean_A]

Here is a look at a bunker from W-S-M.  One can see the little frilly bits start to emerge, the size and depth, and the sanded faces.  IMO, its only a matter of degree between this and Dr Mac's California look.  I think the course was redone by Dr Mac around 1920.



And Troon Portland roughly the same time as above.  I can certainly see the beginnings of the California style even though these bunkers are different from above.


Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Chip
Mackenzie brought that style of bunker with him to California. And Thomas and Bell's similar style predates Mackenzie coming to California. I think it is possible Bell developed that style while working with William Watson. Watson did travel overseas and could have easily been influenced by Colt, Mackenzie, et al. So its possible that California style was influenced by Mackenzie, but not in the way we may think.

Tom, your theory is certainly plausible, but I have seen quite a few vintage WW course photos, and they look nothing like BB's style. In fact, from what I've seen of San Diego CC (before BB got there) and Olympic Ocean after they first opened, they look totally opposite.

I would agree Watson & Bell's bunkers are a little more subdued than Thomas & Bell's bunkers, but certainly not boring. I'd say they were closer to Colt than Mackenzie. Another possible influence Fowler & Simpson who were in California in 1920-1921.

[Jon Spaulding]

Fowler's bunkering at the initial version of LACC North was quite utilitarian. There is a very good aerial in the clubhouse of the 1st hole, Fowler version....with the 9th and 18th green featuring Bell bunkering, taken during the late 20's remodel, (perhaps they did a preview for the members).

Sean Arble; thanks for the excellent photo of the Weston (pre-CA) bunkering. My influence theory is loosely based on Meadow, and some earlier works across the pond. Weston certainly debunks a portion of that. Any idea if Cole or Fleming were involved in the construction of Weston?

I don't have my reference material or timeline handy, but fairly sure that Bell's Castlewood in the East Bay predates Meadow, as does La Cumbre, which had some rather wild bunkering. One has to imagine that Mac-Hunter would have seen these prior to, or during the infamous trip to Riviera during construction, and it might have influenced the evolution of their famous CA bunkers.

If someone has the Bell/Mac timeline, and the interest to post it and compare the two would be beneficial....

[Mike Cirba]

Why would not George Thomas have simply leveraged the knowledge he gained onsite at Merion and Pine Valley in terms of natural looking and bold bunkering?

Why would he have to learn it from somewhere else?

My lord, sometimes this site does get strangely speculative.

Especially considering that George Thomas HIMSELF told us who his design inflluences were, loudly and clearly, in his book.

Sheesh...

[Sean_A]

Why would not George Thomas have simply leveraged the knowledge he gained onsite at Merion and Pine Valley in terms of natural looking and bold bunkering?

Why would he have to learn it from somewhere else?

My lord, sometimes this site does get strangely speculative.

Especially considering that George Thomas HIMSELF told us who his design inflluences were, loudly and clearly, in his book.

Sheesh...

Mike

I have said it many times, far too much time is spent on ga-gaing over bunker aesthetics and not enough time is spent on bunker placement.  To me, aesthetics are secondary to placement and for nearly every club, maintenance considerations.  For instance, I love Fowler's utilitarian style.  They are best showcased at Walton Heath, one of the best bunkered courses around.

I put up pix of Dr Mac's work to show that influence is a highly over-rated and over-speculative issue.  

Where do you spose this style originated from?  In many ways, its the most natural looking bunkers I have seen anywhere only the area is flat!  On the other hand, the placement 15 yards off the green is cool.


Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Why would not George Thomas have simply leveraged the knowledge he gained onsite at Merion and Pine Valley in terms of natural looking and bold bunkering?

Why would he have to learn it from somewhere else?

My lord, sometimes this site does get strangely speculative.

Especially considering that George Thomas HIMSELF told us who his design inflluences were, loudly and clearly, in his book.

Sheesh...

Thank you for reminding us that we are all idiots to look for an influence beyond Philadelphia. I'm surprised you didn't mention Cobbs Creek along the PVGC and Merion.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Speculation is fine when trying to solve a mystery but when the guy spells it out in black and white it gets to be misleading and needlessly revisionist to just try and develop theories out of thin air and cheesecloth.

And you're right...I should have remembered that George Thomas told us that Hugh Wilson was one of the best architects he'd ever seen, and that he learned a lot by watching him at Merion and Cobb's Creek.  Thanks for the reminder.  

And nobody said anything of the sort about "idiots".    I think you're a fine researcher, Tom, and like Joe Bausch, I am glad you're on this site and enjoy most of our discussions.

[Mike Cirba]

For the record, Thomas specifically wrote about the following architects;

Herbert Leeds
Hugh Wilson
William Flynn
Donald Ross
AW Tillinghast
George Crump
Harry Colt
Billy Bell

That's a pretty good finishing school.

[Chip Gaskins]

OK, OK, no East Coast / West Coast rap wars here....there are no Notorious B.I.G. versus 2Pac posters on GCA 

I was asking an honest question about Thomas' bunkering influences.  Some of them looked to me like Mackenzie.

What I found out was it was really Bell doing much of the bunkering work.  So I asked the same question about Bell, albeit after I saw a picture of the good doctor sketching with Bell and Thomas (supposedly at Riviera).  Then a bunch of great GCA researchers chimed in (Tully, MacWood, Cirba, Arble, etc) and now I have no idea...WHICH IS FINE.  Lets all just get along.

We can end with a group hug and an understanding that Riviera is super fantastic (and #10 is overrated :-)

Back to March Madness, oh yeah, Carolina is playing in the NIT

[Mike Cirba]

Chip,

Riviera is awesome.   

Even for a west coast course.   

Seriously, as mentioned on another thread, it's one of my favorite 10 US courses and I think it is better than LACC, although the work going on there at present to recover George Thomas's work may lead to a different future result.

[David Stamm]

LACC is destined to take over top dog spot. The work being done is returning the course to it's former glory. It's going to be amazing.


Mike, for the love of pete, let the cut under your nose heal and shut up about Thomas, Philly, East vs West coasts.

[Mike Cirba]

LACC is destined to take over top dog spot. The work being done is returning the course to it's former glory. It's going to be amazing.


Mike, for the love of pete, let the cut under your nose heal and shut up about Thomas, Philly, East vs West coasts.

David,

Just joking in response to Chip.   I could care less what coast any course is on except to figure out how to get there!    

As far as Thomas, he was pretty clear about his architectural education, and as much as I love the work of Dr. Mac, not every flashy bunker came from his influence.

Great to hear about the work being done at LACC.   The course is definitely in good hands.

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
I have to say that I think it is drawing a fairly long bow to suggest that Mac's bunkers at Weston-super-Mare, or anywhere else in the UK for that matter, were only one step away from being like the Meadow Club's bunkers. I think it's a few more steps away than that. What you forget about is the johnny-on-the-spot who was Robert Hunter. His influence on Mackenzie's bunkering in California should not be underestimated in my view.