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George Pazin

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Re: June! London!
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2010, 05:13:48 PM »
Shouldn't you be in the air? :)

Have fun, look forward to the writeup!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2010, 06:10:51 PM »
George, if it were up to me I'd be on the aircraft but USAir apparently has other ideas at the moment!

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2010, 03:42:35 PM »
Well this entire deal (pun intended) continues to be one unexpected treat after the other. Mark graciously offered to meet me at the Tonbridge train station and drive me to golf at Crowborough. Cool, no?

When I walk out of the station who is sitting with Mark but Scott Warren who is joining us for the day. But that wasn't the last treat of the day. While changing clothes in the locker room I notice yet another familiar face...Craig Disher is "in country" so Mark had let him know we were getting togethe

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2010, 03:50:44 PM »
Brent great fun but I felt like a foreigner on my own manor!! On saying that I enjoyed catching up with Craig and always have a ball with Mr Warren. I hear the Deal train was waiting for you, the late hospitality and local rush hour threw my timings out.

Enjoy the rest of your trip.
Cave Nil Vino

Scott Warren

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Re: June! London!
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2010, 03:52:23 PM »
It was a great day. Wonderful to meet Brent, fantastic to see Craig again - completely unexpectedly, and to catch up with Mark after too long a break.

Crowborough is a really enjoyable course, too. Highly recommended.

Jamie Barber

Re: June! London!
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2010, 11:12:06 AM »
Brent, enjoyed your company today. As we left I saw someone I hadn't seen for a while and he told me it was supposed to get windy later, so we got lucky eh? ;D

Craig Disher

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Re: June! London!
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2010, 12:46:15 PM »
Brent,
It was great seeing you - I assume you ate and slept well after an hour's sleep and a fairly strenuous walk . I really enjoyed Crowborough and echo Scott's recommendation. The views are spectacular - certainly on a par with those at nearby Ashdown Forest.

I'm surprised you didn't have a windy round today at Princes. Jim Goby and I went off Littlestone about 9 and were hammered by a constant 25 mph NE wind. Yesterday in a similar wind the 2nd qualifying round for the EGU county championship (won by Kent) at LGC had 76 as the lowest score - and that's for 36 golfers with handicaps in the scr-3 range. We had a good bit of wind yesterday at Crowborough but there seemed to be occasional relief when we were below the tree line. Today it was constant.

Hope you enjoy the rest of your stay.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2010, 12:57:13 PM »
Brent,
It was great seeing you - I assume you ate and slept well after an hour's sleep and a fairly strenuous walk . I really enjoyed Crowborough and echo Scott's recommendation. The views are spectacular - certainly on a par with those at nearby Ashdown Forest.

I'm surprised you didn't have a windy round today at Princes. Jim Goby and I went off Littlestone about 9 and were hammered by a constant 25 mph NE wind. Yesterday in a similar wind the 2nd qualifying round for the EGU county championship (won by Kent) at LGC had 76 as the lowest score - and that's for 36 golfers with handicaps in the scr-3 range. We had a good bit of wind yesterday at Crowborough but there seemed to be occasional relief when we were below the tree line. Today it was constant.

Hope you enjoy the rest of your stay.

Jim Goby was designed to play in that kind of wind!   Please pass on my regards!

Jamie Barber

Re: June! London!
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2010, 02:18:57 PM »
Craig - i guess you didn't pick up on the irony. ;)

I think we were even more exposed here than you would have been at Littlestone. It was at least a 4 club wind by the time we finished.

The 7th on our Dunes 9 is a short par 4 ~370yds usually played wood/wedge. Today I hit a decent drive then nailed my approach from 160 yds .... with a 2 iron :):)

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2010, 03:52:11 PM »
Yessir, if we had gotten any "luckier" with the wind we'd have been off to see the wizard with Dorothy and Toto. I'm glad the company was good because the golf was ugly...a certain aforementioned 2-iron excepted.

Jamie is an excellent ballhawk I must say.

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2010, 11:02:04 PM »
Brent, Craig,

Finding out you guys were playing together in Jolly Olde made me realize I must have misplaced the invitation to the reunion.  I've looked everywhere and it just doesn't seem to be here.  Unless I wasn't invited.....but of course that isn't possible since it's a one hundred per cent guarantee that someone will make a hole in one when the three of us play together. 
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2010, 04:27:32 AM »
Steve,

For the trip so far, Crowborough was indeed the round where you, Craig and I might have continued "the streak". Once the breeze picked up yesterday, no lucky charm would have a prayer.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2010, 11:07:46 AM »
1605hrs, beautiful day and I've just worked 1200-0500 yesterday/today and back in at 0800-1400 after 2 hours sleep. Whilst I'm knackered Mr Hutto is probably around the 16th at Sandwich......lucky boy!!
Cave Nil Vino

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2010, 03:09:15 PM »
Lucky boy, indeed. Let's see, 16th hole...playing downwind, no 9-iron in the bag...tried a half-swing 8 and fatted it into the first bunker...from there into second bunker, out onto green...made the 20-footer for my four.

Bogied every hole on the back except 14 (OB tee shot) and 15 (damned hard hole...S.I. 11 my ass) but the front was ugly. Lipped out a 5-foot birdie putt on 3rd, lipped out 10-foot par putt on 4th then X'd the next few holes until a double on 9th.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2010, 05:12:35 PM »
Bjorn would have taken that!! "His" bunker has been made shallower and far easier than the last Open.

Enjoy Deal over the next couple of days, I'll be interested to hear on or off the record how the course is comparing with our neighbours.
Cave Nil Vino

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2010, 07:48:23 AM »
Mark,

I'll speak on the record, briefly, about three courses I was fortunate to play on the Deal/Sandwich coast.

Comparing Deal to Princes and allowing for the fact that my strongest winds of the week were on Wednesday at Princes I'll say that I found Royal Cinque Ports to suit my game better. I can't totally separate out how much of that was due to the rough at Princes seeming to be about a month "ahead" of Deal in terms of thickness and length. But there also seems to be an effect that the northerly wind had an unfavorable angle on more shots for a lefty slicer at Princes than at Royal Cinque Ports which seems to vary the hole orientation a bit more.

But aside from my personal experience under one specific set of weather conditions, I'd say the advantage that Royal Cinque Ports holds over Princes comes down to a few totally world-class, highly memorable holes at the former. There are not equivalents to the sixth and tenth holes at Deal at Princes (those are my personal faves) and a couple others are great individual holes as well. That said, I think there may not be as sustained a stretch of fine, challenging holes at Royal Cinque Ports as the first five holes on the Dunes nine at Princes. Plus I have a lot of time (as Sean Arble would say) for 27-hole clubs, although given the uncomfortable wind Jamie and I did not sample the third nine on this particular day. And now I'll add one more comment that may label me a heretic and a whiner...

Princes does not have as unpleasantly difficult and discomfiting back-to-back pair as the sixteenth and seventeenth at Deal. I know it's usually considered a fine thing to have some of the most difficult holes at the close of a round (and lord knows the eighteenth is no pushover itself) but in a perfect world any course with two holes that "quirky" would spread them out a bit. I'm not talking about an "eighteenth at Cypress Point" kind of letdown but the difficulty of finding and executing any sort of safe tee shot to a playable landing area on those two holes in a row (especially in a breeze, even an downwind notherly) can leave one feeling more frustrated than exhilarated. By comparison the final hole at Princes' Dunes course is tricky, occasionally frustrating but can be played conservatively with two solid and well-chosen shots.

Note to Tony Muldoon. I'm not making the above comments based on my last-three-hole collapse on Saturday. You stole that match from me honestly  ;D by buckling down and doing what needed to be done the final six or so holes. Although in retrospect I'm no longer sure that was actually your ball I found sitting right by the green when we thought it was lost...

Now on to the comparison of Royal Cinque Ports to Royal St. Georges. I thought about trying to phrase this in a more considered and even-handed style but that would not be honest. I like Royal St. Georges better than Deal or Princes, although I would not turn down a round at any of the three if offered. In fact, I like Royal St. Georges better than most of the golf courses I've ever seen. I put Cypress Point Club in a class all its own but leaving that heavenly experience aside, the quality of the course at Sandwich sits right along side the Ocean Course at Kiawah or Royal Dornoch or any other course you'd care to name. And Kiawah is the only one that comes to mind as being the equal of Royal St. Georges in both "course which can challenge the best players in the world" and "course I could love playing every day" categories.

I can't say all that exactly why I found Royal St. Georges superior to Royal Cinque Ports specifically. It also has some extremely memorable holes. I'd consider the tenth at Sandwich nearly the equal to the sixth at Deal (with a scarier green and more effective bunkering at the former) and the fourth at Sandwich is only a tiny increment less fun and gorgeously contoured than the tenth at Deal (once again RSG has a superior green). Keep in mind I consider the tenth at Royal Cinque Ports one of the finest in the world. Then there's the obvious comparison of the eighth at RSG to the third at RCP (no contest, the eighth at Sandwich tops my personal list of punchbowl greens). I am in awe of the set of Par 3's at Sandwich, although the set of one-shotters at Deal are better than the vast majority of courses I've played. And the closing stretch is solid at Royal St. Georges while perhaps not quite as bracing in match play as the Royal Cinque Ports finale it is more suited to a medal game. Then there's the conditioning...which I know puts me on shaky ground in this forum...but while RCP was in absolutely top-notch condition and the greens were excellent (weren't they Tony? especially the first green?) the greens, fairways, rough and everything about the grooming and preparation at Royal St. Georges speaks to much money, very well spent. The exception was a few bunkers which have recently been rebuilt and whose sand has yet to settle (like at Princes by the way).

So there it is Mark, warts and all. None of this is meant to damn your club's course with faint praise. I returned there this year considering Royal Cinque Ports one of my very favorite places to play golf and that has not changed. But now that I've seen its two nearest neighbors I must say that with rough comparable to that at Deal (and wind comparable to my days at deal later in the week  ::)) I don't know that Princes gives up a whole hell of a lot in comparison. It really does come down to how much weight you grant to the very best holes (which are awesome at Deal) and how much downgrading you do for extra time spent searching for potentially lost golf balls at Princes. And I am now fully convinced that Royal St. Georges is at least the equal of any course on the Open rota and superior to most of them. I will return for a two-round "Day" ticket at Sandwich upon my earliest opportunity. I can't wait to play there again, which of course has been true of Deal for four  years now.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 07:58:09 AM by Brent Hutto »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2010, 10:53:48 AM »
Mark,

I'll speak on the record, briefly, about three courses I was fortunate to play on the Deal/Sandwich coast.

Comparing Deal to Princes and allowing for the fact that my strongest winds of the week were on Wednesday at Princes I'll say that I found Royal Cinque Ports to suit my game better. I can't totally separate out how much of that was due to the rough at Princes seeming to be about a month "ahead" of Deal in terms of thickness and length. But there also seems to be an effect that the northerly wind had an unfavorable angle on more shots for a lefty slicer at Princes than at Royal Cinque Ports which seems to vary the hole orientation a bit more.

But aside from my personal experience under one specific set of weather conditions, I'd say the advantage that Royal Cinque Ports holds over Princes comes down to a few totally world-class, highly memorable holes at the former. There are not equivalents to the sixth and tenth holes at Deal at Princes (those are my personal faves) and a couple others are great individual holes as well. That said, I think there may not be as sustained a stretch of fine, challenging holes at Royal Cinque Ports as the first five holes on the Dunes nine at Princes. Plus I have a lot of time (as Sean Arble would say) for 27-hole clubs, although given the uncomfortable wind Jamie and I did not sample the third nine on this particular day. And now I'll add one more comment that may label me a heretic and a whiner...

Princes does not have as unpleasantly difficult and discomfiting back-to-back pair as the sixteenth and seventeenth at Deal. I know it's usually considered a fine thing to have some of the most difficult holes at the close of a round (and lord knows the eighteenth is no pushover itself) but in a perfect world any course with two holes that "quirky" would spread them out a bit. I'm not talking about an "eighteenth at Cypress Point" kind of letdown but the difficulty of finding and executing any sort of safe tee shot to a playable landing area on those two holes in a row (especially in a breeze, even an downwind notherly) can leave one feeling more frustrated than exhilarated. By comparison the final hole at Princes' Dunes course is tricky, occasionally frustrating but can be played conservatively with two solid and well-chosen shots.

Note to Tony Muldoon. I'm not making the above comments based on my last-three-hole collapse on Saturday. You stole that match from me honestly  ;D by buckling down and doing what needed to be done the final six or so holes. Although in retrospect I'm no longer sure that was actually your ball I found sitting right by the green when we thought it was lost...

Now on to the comparison of Royal Cinque Ports to Royal St. Georges. I thought about trying to phrase this in a more considered and even-handed style but that would not be honest. I like Royal St. Georges better than Deal or Princes, although I would not turn down a round at any of the three if offered. In fact, I like Royal St. Georges better than most of the golf courses I've ever seen. I put Cypress Point Club in a class all its own but leaving that heavenly experience aside, the quality of the course at Sandwich sits right along side the Ocean Course at Kiawah or Royal Dornoch or any other course you'd care to name. And Kiawah is the only one that comes to mind as being the equal of Royal St. Georges in both "course which can challenge the best players in the world" and "course I could love playing every day" categories.

I can't say all that exactly why I found Royal St. Georges superior to Royal Cinque Ports specifically. It also has some extremely memorable holes. I'd consider the tenth at Sandwich nearly the equal to the sixth at Deal (with a scarier green and more effective bunkering at the former) and the fourth at Sandwich is only a tiny increment less fun and gorgeously contoured than the tenth at Deal (once again RSG has a superior green). Keep in mind I consider the tenth at Royal Cinque Ports one of the finest in the world. Then there's the obvious comparison of the eighth at RSG to the third at RCP (no contest, the eighth at Sandwich tops my personal list of punchbowl greens). I am in awe of the set of Par 3's at Sandwich, although the set of one-shotters at Deal are better than the vast majority of courses I've played. And the closing stretch is solid at Royal St. Georges while perhaps not quite as bracing in match play as the Royal Cinque Ports finale it is more suited to a medal game. Then there's the conditioning...which I know puts me on shaky ground in this forum...but while RCP was in absolutely top-notch condition and the greens were excellent (weren't they Tony? especially the first green?) the greens, fairways, rough and everything about the grooming and preparation at Royal St. Georges speaks to much money, very well spent. The exception was a few bunkers which have recently been rebuilt and whose sand has yet to settle (like at Princes by the way).

So there it is Mark, warts and all. None of this is meant to damn your club's course with faint praise. I returned there this year considering Royal Cinque Ports one of my very favorite places to play golf and that has not changed. But now that I've seen its two nearest neighbors I must say that with rough comparable to that at Deal (and wind comparable to my days at deal later in the week  ::)) I don't know that Princes gives up a whole hell of a lot in comparison. It really does come down to how much weight you grant to the very best holes (which are awesome at Deal) and how much downgrading you do for extra time spent searching for potentially lost golf balls at Princes. And I am now fully convinced that Royal St. Georges is at least the equal of any course on the Open rota and superior to most of them. I will return for a two-round "Day" ticket at Sandwich upon my earliest opportunity. I can't wait to play there again, which of course has been true of Deal for four  years now.

Brent

Interesting Brent Notes.  You have whet my appetite.  I largely concur with you in that all three are worth a bit of effort to see with Sandwich as the clear favourite.  Although, it is a bit disappointing to hear that Princes is letting the rough get a grip.  It is that time of year, but imo well maintained courses don't have to suffer the summer rough as badly as less well maintained courses.  You seem less enthralled than myself concerning 16 & 17 at Deal - two holes I like just as much as 6 & 10.  What is the story?

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 11:07:20 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2010, 10:55:54 AM »
Brent,

RSG may be the best golf course I have ever played.

From the moment you exit your vehicle in the car park you KNOW you are visiting a championship venue. The brawny, bold nature of the course with its immaculate presentation is the perfect blend of challenge and thrill. As you said, RSG can accommodate the great and not-so-great golfer will equal satisfaction... a feat that not too many courses can accomplish.

I wish you had taken LOTS of pictures!

See you soon.

Mike
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2010, 11:09:34 AM »
All I can say, Hutto, is that you are a lucky dog!   ;D

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2010, 11:31:28 AM »
All I can say, Hutto, is that you are a lucky dog!   ;D

Perhaps the luckiest dogs of all were those who got to attend last year's Buda cup (for instance a certain Buda-ite got to play with Joe Fairey two or three times which is lucky in anyone's book).

That said, boy you aren't kidding! From the unexpectedly available frequent flier ticket, to the opportunity to play with Chaplin, Warren, Disher, Barber, Warren again and Muldoon and then the mountaintop experience of being shown around Royal St. George's by Mr. Justen Fiddler of the professional's staff it was just one of those special events in life that are everything you hope and then some. Oh and I got a super-cool Royal Cinque Ports headcover to replace the crap one that came with my Titleist driver.

Mike W,

I just wish I had a picture of my golf ball rolling thiiiiis close to the lip of the hole on the third at St. George's. Or maybe a picture of my resulting birdie putt rolling thiiiiis close to the same damned lip on the way back down the hill. The pro I was playing with told me on the first tee that every visitor to Royal St. George's plays putts outside the hole that are actually quite straight. After that putt on the third he said "I meant to say that most visitors play too much break on their putts here". You've gotta love a bit of dry Scottish humor. Of course he could have reminded me of that before I struck the putt but I guess he didn't want to lose the hole!

Quote
You seem less enthralled than myself concerning 16 & 17 at Deal - two holes I like just as much as 6 & 10.  What is the story?

I think for a single hole, combining a poor chance of a level spot being reachable with ones tee shot with a semi-blind view of the green over severe up-and-down terrain is a tough ask. And perfectly fine by me. Having two such holes back-to-back and actually three holes pretty much fitting that description in the closing stretch is a bit much. When I played there in 2006 I had the "prevailing" wind twice and sort of a Southeast-ish variant one round. So it was a fiendish slog home but what the hell.

This time I had a severely downwind (and intermittently rainy) back nine on Saturday and downwind with slightly less velocity the afternoon before. In theory the easier wind to deal with. Maybe it's a lefty thing (which was the view of one member whose name escapes me that we were talking to in the halfway house on Saturday) but Tony Muldoon as a righty also commented that downwind actually makes the shots more confounding on those holes. Basically there is no combination of conservative club selection, choice of aiming line and playing short to bounce onto the green which renders an "easy five" or even a "sure six" on those holes.

So as I say, one hole like that is awesome. Two or three spread throughout the round would be fine. Three of them in 45 minutes time is a bit much, even in match play. At least for double-digit handicappers. By comparison, the into-the-wind closing stretch at Princes was tough and with a couple of quirky shots but with any kind of decent execution you can kind of give yourself a fighting chance without so much hit-and-hope packed into a brief stretch.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2010, 01:11:06 PM »
The one thing I would say is that the major hit and hope of 16 at Deal is encountered when you choose to go for it in two (and congratulations, in a year and a half of trying you were present for the first time I have ever managed to get it up the sope in two, even if I then failed to hold the green!).

The option is there to lay up in the valley short and play a pitch/chip/putt for your third. This is also likely the wisest play with a card in hand seeing the green does its best, as you pointed out, to shrug off any ball that reaches it from any great distance and, even if you hold it in two, the likelihood of three-putting from one segremt of the green to another is great.

So with that choice to be made to embrace the risky, chance-y, quirky second shot, I have no problem with it adjoining the forced quirk and blindness of 17. It does amaze me how easy the cross bunkers on 17 are to reach with even a touch of helping wind!

Sandwich, Deal and Prince's are quite remarkably different courses for their proximity, so comparing them is never easy.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: June! London!
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2010, 01:18:27 PM »
A couple of pics from Crowborough.

1. Our protagonist putts his third on the par five 14th.

2. Messrs Hutto, Disher, warren and Chaplin post-round.

Jamie Barber

Re: June! London!
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2010, 03:26:34 PM »
 Although, it is a bit disappointing to hear that Princes is letting the rough get a grip.  It is that time of year, but imo well maintained courses don't have to suffer the summer rough as badly as less well maintained courses.

We were playing in quite a wind which always makes it seem more severe but actually I didn't think rough was nearly as bad as it can be. I only lost one ball and that was a lousy tee shot. There is now a clear cut of semi and bear in mind the club are only allowed to cut the rough during certain times of the year due to ground nesting birds, and at that time this year it was simply too wet.

Brent Hutto

Re: June! London!
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2010, 03:41:02 PM »
Scott,

Thanks for posting those photos. As you know I wasn't taking any pictures but those from Crowborough will be a great keepsake.

Jamie,

I do think the "first cut" or semi-rough is worth mentioning. Up to a certain point in the wind velocity (well short of what we played in on Wednesday) I think by choosing a conservative line and hitting a decent shot one could let the semi widen the fairway by keeping the ball from rolling into the thick stuff. My problem was that when the wind gets to 20mph+ even marginal shots and especially the really bad ones are going so far off line the semi is no help.

And as we know, even a 2-iron into the wind can be struck well from that first cut of rough, innit?  :o

Jamie Barber

Re: June! London!
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2010, 04:23:03 PM »
Indeed that was a bigger wind then one would want to play every day. Hopefully the next time you visit the golfing gods will be kinder :)