A few George Thomas questions...

[Chip Gaskins]

Questions over the past few months...

1)  How long did George Thomas spend at Pine Valley, if at all?
2)  Was George Thomas influenced at all by Mackenzie, if so, where?
3)  Did George Thomas and Perry Maxwell ever meet?

[TEPaul]

"1)  How long did George Thomas spend at Pine Valley, if at all?"

Good question. I've never really tried to analyze the membership rolls of PV at any particular point in time but I believe he was a very early member and a member throughout his life (don't forget Thomas was a very rich man). He did come back even after he moved to California around 1919 and when he came back I believe he had some involvement with the course and perhaps with Flynn at Pine Valley shortly after Crump died. And don't forget what Thomas said about Pine Valley in the forward of his book about his learning experiences.


"2)  Was George Thomas influenced at all by Mackenzie, if so, where?"

A good question. I believe Thomas and Mackenzie may've had some semi-significant misunderstanding or even falling out in California whether with Riviera or something else. This is definitely a question for those two Thomas experts, Shackelford and Wexler. Shackelford did mention something like that to me years ago but I forgot the particulars if he ever even mentioned them. Don't forget, Thomas was one of those significant "amateur/sportsmen" architects who never took money for what he did in architecture which apparently pissed off some architects who had become paid professionals at it. Max Behr ran into the same problems with some in the 1920s. It was not until around 1920-21 that the USGA finally relented and created what became known as the "Architect Exception" to their Rules on Amateur Status.


"3)  Did George Thomas and Perry Maxwell ever meet?"

Another good question but they probably did at some point in the 1920s as Maxwell was made a member of Pine Valley and he did work there. Interestingly enough I have never even seen Thomas or Maxwell's name mentioned in the entire ten year development leading up to the creation of the USGA Green Section. For two such as those and their prominence and particularly their PV membership and Midwest and West Coast regionality at the time that does seem strange given who they were. And it's not as if Thomas wasn't an expert on plants and such since he was apparently one of the world's real experts and growers of roses and the hybridizing of them.

[Matthew Runde]

I don't remember what Thomas wrote about MacKenzie, but I believe he did mention something in Golf Architecture in America.

Just because I get a kick out of it, here's that photo.

[Michael Robin]

I think the real question is how much was Thomas influenced by Macdonald and Raynor? There are lots of their elements all over Riviera. Not verbatim templates, but elements that Thomas took and did his thing with.

#1 Is this green influenced by the Lion's Mouth?
#4 Is this the first version of a Redan on the West Coast?
#5 Is the man-made hill that guards the right side of the green and the big kicker a tribute to The Alps?
#6 If you pull the bunker in the middle of the green straight forward to the front, does it become The Strath? Left side has a stand-in for The Hill and a severe back to front slope. The right side, with the bunker in the middle, becomes a Punchbowl. So is this an Eden or might it actually be a Short with its 3 distinct pinning areas?
#7 Hogsback fairway.
#8 Thomas' par4 version of The Channel Hole?
#10 Leven?
#13 Cape, before the left trees were subsequently planted.
#14 I had never understood this hole. It always seemed like it was a throwaway hole, just a bad day for Thomas/Bell. It did have this majestic setting, sort of set in a gallery of trees - very presentational, but why? A friend who is very well versed in Mac/Raynor was playing there with me not long ago and after listening to my theories all day looked at this hole and said "Well, this is actually The Eden." Big Hill bunker on the left, wide and narrow green, front right bunker starts at the approximate placement of the Strath. Not a duplicate, but inspired by and given one of the prettiest settings at Riviera. Very grand presentation as it reveals itself to you on the walk from 13. Fitting for what was still considered the Best 1 Shot hole in the game at that time.
#15 Biarritz green spun and placed on a diagonal, and used on a par 4.
#17 Long with Hell Bunker off the tee instead of the 2nd shot.
#18 Sahara-like tee shot.

I pitched all this to a renowned Architect last summer and he accused me of seeing Jesus everywhere. I think I was finally seeing Thomas being influenced by the Father of Golf Architecture in America.

[Tom MacWood]

I doubt Mackenzie had much influence. Thomas used Mackenzie drawings in his book, but those came from Hunter. By the time he met Mackenzie he had pretty much developed his own style. Thomas was a member of PVGC during its formative years so I would imagine he followed its development pretty closely. Thomas does not mention Maxwell or show any of his designed in his book. Its possible they met later but Thomas design career ended not too long after the book. If I was forced to name Thomas's biggest influence I'd say it was Billy Bell.

[Mike Cirba]

Here's a recently discovered 1915 photo of George Thomas with Ab Smith at Huntingdon Valley (the original course).

[John Mayhugh]

I think the real question is how much was Thomas influenced by Macdonald and Raynor? There are lots of their elements all over Riviera. Not verbatim templates, but elements that Thomas took and did his thing with.

#1 Is this green influenced by the Lion's Mouth?
#4 Is this the first version of a Redan on the West Coast?
#5 Is the man-made hill that guards the right side of the green and the big kicker a tribute to The Alps?
#6 If you pull the bunker in the middle of the green straight forward to the front, does it become The Strath? Left side has a stand-in for The Hill and a severe back to front slope. The right side, with the bunker in the middle, becomes a Punchbowl. So is this an Eden or might it actually be a Short with its 3 distinct pinning areas?
#7 Hogsback fairway.
#8 Thomas' par4 version of The Channel Hole?
#10 Leven?
#13 Cape, before the left trees were subsequently planted.
#14 I had never understood this hole. It always seemed like it was a throwaway hole, just a bad day for Thomas/Bell. It did have this majestic setting, sort of set in a gallery of trees - very presentational, but why? A friend who is very well versed in Mac/Raynor was playing there with me not long ago and after listening to my theories all day looked at this hole and said "Well, this is actually The Eden." Big Hill bunker on the left, wide and narrow green, front right bunker starts at the approximate placement of the Strath. Not a duplicate, but inspired by and given one of the prettiest settings at Riviera. Very grand presentation as it reveals itself to you on the walk from 13. Fitting for what was still considered the Best 1 Shot hole in the game at that time.
#15 Biarritz green spun and placed on a diagonal, and used on a par 4.
#17 Long with Hell Bunker off the tee instead of the 2nd shot.
#18 Sahara-like tee shot.

I pitched all this to a renowned Architect last summer and he accused me of seeing Jesus everywhere. I think I was finally seeing Thomas being influenced by the Father of Golf Architecture in America.

If you consider that CBM's templates were based on sound, strategic principles, then it seems logical to think other architects would use them too.  I think that's why you can see "Jesus" out there - I did too.  It would be great to know if there was any historical basis to think Thomas was influenced directly by CBM's work or rather came to the same sort of conclusions on his own.

[TEPaul]

"I think the real question is how much was Thomas influenced by Macdonald and Raynor? There are lots of their elements all over Riviera. Not verbatim templates, but elements that Thomas took and did his thing with."


Michael Robin:

On who influenced Thomas on architecture it's probably best that we don't just speculate on that because of what some think something looks like but basically consider what Thomas himself said about that in his own book on architecture and his life and times with it.

In the section of his book entitled "An Appreciation" he mentions a number of people he worked with around Philadelphia where he came from who influenced him but he does not mention Macdonald.

[John Mayhugh]

On who influenced Thomas on architecture it's probably best that we don't just speculate on that because of what some think something looks like but basically consider what Thomas himself said about that in his own book on architecture and his life and times with it.

In the section of his book entitled "An Appreciation" he mentions a number of people he worked with around Philadelphia where he came from who influenced him but he does not mention Macdonald.

Oh no, I do not just mean that something happened after NGLA. Something may've happened in Macdonald's mind at some point after NGLA with American golf architecture that led him in his autobiography, published in 1928, to state "It makes the very soul of golf shriek" but I believe something happened to him in golf administration much earlier than that which was something like the proverbial dagger right through his heart or at least through his sensibilities about what golf should be or could be in its new American home and with perhaps him being more of the total transporter of it. In many ways he was that transporter of it and many looked to him as that and for that in some specific ways, but then a few things began to happen, and at and with the USGA that he more than clearly articulated in his book if one only bothers to read those sections.

So we shouldn't speculate about influences on George Thomas because he didn't mention them in his book.

But we should speculate about influences on CBM even though he didn't mention them in his book.

What's the difference?

[Chip Gaskins]

The reason i asked about Thomas and Mackenzie was that many of the bunkers at Riviera look a lot like Mackenzie bunkers (at least to me).  So I was wondering where the two men may have crossed paths, if at all.

#16 at Riviera


versus this...

[Adam Clayman]

Chip, Did you happen to go upstairs in the clubhouse and see the old photos of those Bell bunkers?

They look nothing like the bunkers you have pictured above. So confusing them with a Mackenzie look is understandable if you haven't seen pictures of the originals.

The one thing that keeps popping into my head is what Ben Crenshaw said about Thomas and what he did (or didn't do) at Riviera.
He didn't build up one feature that flowed against the flow of the natural site. I don't think the Fazio team can make that claim with their disrespectful interpretation.

 

[TEPaul]

"So we shouldn't speculate about influences on George Thomas because he didn't mention them in his book.

But we should speculate about influences on CBM even though he didn't mention them in his book.

What's the difference?"



The difference probably is you must not have read Macdonald's book very carefully or perhaps you read neither book very carefully but don't worry about it because it seems you're definitely not alone on that.

[David Stamm]

The original look of the bunkers on Thomas' courses are due to Bell. He's the one that gave them the look. How do we know? Thomas' bunkers before he joined with Bell did not have this look for one, and, Bell's solo work reflects the same look. 

[Michael Robin]

Tom Paul -

I don't thnk we can ignore the fact that there is a Redan at Riviera. Or even more importantly, do we ignore the fact that there is a Cape hole at Riv, which was an Original Macdonald design? Seems to me that that speaks for itself even though Thomas didn't cite Macdonald in his book.

[David Kelly]

Adam and David are correct.  When you are talking about Thomas' bunkers think Billy Bell instead.

[John Mayhugh]

"So we shouldn't speculate about influences on George Thomas because he didn't mention them in his book.

But we should speculate about influences on CBM even though he didn't mention them in his book.

What's the difference?"

The difference probably is you must not have read Macdonald's book very carefully or perhaps you read neither book very carefully but don't worry about it because it seems you're definitely not alone on that.

I thought I would give you an opportunity to address your inconsistent approach to speculation - OK for some architects' writings, not OK for others.  Resorting to an ad hominem argument is, I guess, one way to do that.   

[TEPaul]

"I thought I would give you an opportunity to address your inconsistent approach to speculation - OK for some architects' writings, not OK for others.  Resorting to an ad hominem argument is, I guess, one way to do that.    "


John:

You call it an inconsistent approach to speculation. I don't. I don't think my approach to Thomas's book or Macdonald's book is either inconsistent or speculation. I am merely addressing and willing to discuss what they each said in their books about various things and to put it into the context of some of the things they were doing or had done before they wrote that book, particularly Macdonald. Perhaps you think some of the things I've said about them from their books is speculation because you either didn't read them very carefully or you failed to understand something they said or what was going on at the time.

By my count there are just about 4-5 of you on this website---definitely Kennedy, MacWood, Moriarty and you who tend to freak out and get so defensive everytime some people discuss Macdonald; and it seems every time the worn out and automatic response of all of you is ---"that's speculation." It's almost as if all of you got together and agreed on a standard response. I don't think it's speculation or inconsistent, I think it's just recognizing what was written in that autobiography.

 

[Kevin Pallier]

Michael

I recall you espousing those details to me in a conversation last year (no I'm not claiming to be the renowned architect  )

Did Thomas ever travel to GB&I and study golf courses there ?


Chip

There are a couple of neat articles under the "Architecture Timelines" on GCA

http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/george-thomas

[John Mayhugh]

"I thought I would give you an opportunity to address your inconsistent approach to speculation - OK for some architects' writings, not OK for others.  Resorting to an ad hominem argument is, I guess, one way to do that.    "


John:

You call it an inconsistent approach to speculation. I don't. I don't think my approach to Thomas's book or Macdonald's book is either inconsistent or speculation. I am merely addressing and willing to discuss what they each said in their books about various things and to put it into the context of some of the things they were doing or had done before they wrote that book, particularly Macdonald. Perhaps you think some of the things I've said about them from their books is speculation because you either didn't read them very carefully or you failed to understand something they said or what was going on at the time.

By my count there are just about 4-5 of you on this website---definitely Kennedy, MacWood, Moriarty and you who tend to freak out and get so defensive everytime some people discuss Macdonald; and it seems every time the worn out and automatic response of all of you is ---"that's speculation." It's almost as if all of you got together and agreed on a standard response. I don't think it's speculation or inconsistent, I think it's just recognizing what was written in that autobiography.

 

I tend to "freak out" and get so defensive everytime some people discuss Macdonald?  How about citing some specific examples of this? Best to start another thread since we don't want this one running so long while you list them all.  (insert huge eye roll emoticon)

You can criticize CBM to your heart's content.  His work is certainly fair game, as should be anyone else's.  The fact remains that if you want to speculate about what MAY HAVE happened to one architect, you should not try to quash speculation about another.  Avoid the double standards and I'll try to avoid commenting.

[Jon Spaulding]

Anyone ever wonder what influence Bell's bunkering had on MacKenzie?

The bunkering at Meadow Club is certainly "different" than his later designs in CA, or many photos I have seen of his work across the pond prior to arriving out here.

It seems as though most of the Doctor's more ornate sandwork came after his arrival in CA, where Billy was already at work, both on his own and with George. A.M. saw the work, and I would presume it had some form of an impact on him.

If there was a better builder of courses than Billy or Raynor, would love to hear about it.

[David Stamm]

Anyone ever wonder what influence Bell's bunkering had on MacKenzie?

The bunkering at Meadow Club is certainly "different" than his later designs in CA, or many photos I have seen of his work across the pond prior to arriving out here.

It seems as though most of the Doctor's more ornate sandwork came after his arrival in CA, where Billy was already at work, both on his own and with George. A.M. saw the work, and I would presume it had some form of an impact on him.

If there was a better builder of courses than Billy or Raynor, would love to hear about it.

Great point. I have oftened wondered that myself. At times, I actually think Bells' bunkers were even more attractive than MacK's.


And yes, I can't think of a better builder of courses than Bell. The guy was flat out good.

[TEPaul]

"Did Thomas ever travel to GB&I and study golf courses there ?"


Probably, as he was over there in WW1 as a flyer dogging bullets as he tried to shoot down Germans (good opportunity to do some really good aerial reconnaisance of GB golf courses . I think it was Zane Grey he told he couldn't believe he wasn't killed after a number of serious crashes. That's why he was always referred to as "the Captain." He apparently even outfitted his squadron himself.

[Neil_Crafter]

Here's another pic of Mackenzie (centre, sketching) with George Thomas at his right, and Billy Bell at his immediate left. I believe this was taken at Riviera but not 100% certain.

Also have two clippings referring to these three, one of Fox Hills (LA Times 7 Nov 1926) where Mackenzie certainly thought he was going to be a co-designer and one about Riviera (17 Oct 1926), where it is likely he thought the same thing.

I think Mackenzie felt he was misled by Bell and Thomas and later wrote a fairly scathing commentary about Thomas' short course at Riviera. Was Mackenzie influenced by Bell's bunkering? Quite possibly I think. Mackenzie's California bunkering was the most dramatic of any courses he did, certainly more dramatic than his work in the UK, and in Australia. Would be an interesting thesis to follow up on.

[Bob_Huntley]

Neil,

In reading your "I think Mackenzie felt he was misled by Bell and Thomas and later wrote a fairly scathing commentary about Thomas' short course at Riviera," makes me wonder, did Mackenzie have any friends left in the architectural community in his later years? I have some of his correspondence with Sam Morse and he just seemed a prickly SOB.

Bob

[Chip Gaskins]

Neil-

Would you say Mackenzie's bunkering look in California (that, as you said, seem more extravagant than his other courses, even here in the U.S.) was a product of his own thoughts or Robert Hunter's thoughts?  Maybe it was Hunter that was influenced by Billy Bell?  Is Hunter in that picture you posted?

Chip