[Mark Chaplin]

I'll sign up tomorrow twin share overnight, breakfast, sleeve of balls and a round on Number 2 for $511 in March, $574 in high season and $474 in low season, plus tax and service......bargain!

There should be no correlation between cost and architecture as a course is the same whether it cost 1$ or $500 but there has to be a limit to what each individual is prepared to pay to experience it.

[JC Jones]

Eric,

most of the top 20 private cost about $400 unaccompanied.  That does not seem to have affected their architecture.

[Sean_A]

I would suggest that once we are talking about $250 $300, $400 green fees the customer is looking for more than just great architecture.  Great architecture can be rented for far less.  He may (should?) want to rent a great experience.  IMO, this is hard to deliver from a public course.  Pinehirst certainly falls short. 

Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

  Just a thought.....It seems that the greatness is in the greens, but how many times have we heard those aren't original Ross greens?

  Anthony

[Jon Heise]

I would suggest that once we are talking about $250 $300, $400 green fees the customer is looking for more than just great architecture.  Great architecture can be rented for far less.  He may (should?) want to rent a great experience. 

I totally agree with this.


Pinehirst certainly falls short. 

I totally disagree with this.

Ciao

Sean, I think you mentioned this site in an earlier post.  http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Green_Evolution_Report.html  In fact, you probably posted it way back in the first place.  This one I had bookmarked, couldn't just click it and forget it...

[jim_lewis]

Anthony:

What if I told you I designed the greens at #2?  I snuck over there one night about 30 years ago with my magic wand and changed all of Donald's greens to what you see today,  Lewis greens. Would that make the better.......or worse? OK, so it wasn't me, but I would like to shake the hand of the genius who is responsible for what we have today, some of the greatest green complexes in the world, who the hell ever he was.

[Mark Pritchett]

I agree Jim, whether they are Ross or a combination of Ross, nature, topdressing, someone or something else, etc. they are amazing. 

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

What if I told you I designed the greens at #2?  I snuck over there one night about 30 years ago with my magic wand and changed all of Donald's greens to what you see today,  Lewis greens. Would that make the better.......or worse? OK, so it wasn't me, but I would like to shake the hand of the genius who is responsible for what we have today, some of the greatest green complexes in the world, who the hell ever he was.

  I would say Lewis needs to get some credit for P2. The first several holes are the same just different distances. Much like Dornach 3 4 5. Same topo only different length 2nd shots. The other holes have very little quirk or memorable features. That one par 3 has a severe slope to the green but not much is memorable. And you're golfing in a neighborhood. Al you hear is ROSS ROSS ROSS when talking about the greens then you hear those arn't his greens. Confusing.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  I like the greens by the way but do they have variety in slope and size or do they all have those run offs everywhere? !6 the upside down saucer is the only one that breaks the pattern.

  Anthony

[jim_lewis]

Anthony:

Yep, that's the way Donald and I designed them. Runoffs on most greens. We don't tolerate, let alone reward, half-ass approach shots. Hit a well struck iron to the proper spot on the green and take out your putter. Hit a mediocre shot and you can still take out your putter, except you will be putting up a slope to reach the green on your next shot. At least we didn't put water or heavy rough around the greens (like the lazy modern architects do), so you still have a chance to salvage a par if you have missed the green on the correct side. These greens were designed to separate the ball stikers from the pretenders, but since you had to pay so much to play, at least we let you finish with the same ball you started with. You want an ocean, go to the beach. You want beauty, visit a garden. You want vista, go to the mountains. You want memories, take a camera. This course is for golfers, not tourists.

[Mark Pritchett]

Anthony:

Yep, that's we way Donald and I designed them. Runoffs on most greens. We don't tolerate, let alone reward, half-ass approach shots. Hit a well struck iron to the proper spot on the green and take out your putter. Hit a mediocre shot and you can still take out youor putter, except you will be putting up a slope to reach the green on your next shot. At least we didn't put water or heavy rough around the greens (like the lazy modern architects do), so you still have a chance to salvage a par (which is more than you deserve) if you have missed the green on the correct side. These greens were designed to separate the ball stikers from the pretenders, but since you had to pay so much to play, at least we let you finish with the same ball you started with. You want an ocean, go to the beach. you want beauty, visit a garden. You want vista, go to the mountains. You want memories, take a camera. This course is for golfers, not tourists.

Post of the year!

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

Yep, that's we way Donald and I designed them. Runoffs on most greens. We don't tolerate, let alone reward, half-ass approach shots. Hit a well struck iron to the proper spot on the green and take out your putter. Hit a mediocre shot and you can still take out youor putter, except you will be putting up a slope to reach the green on your next shot. At least we didn't put water or heavy rough around the greens (like the lazy modern architects do), so you still have a chance to salvage a par if you have missed the green on the correct side. These greens were designed to separate the ball stikers from the pretenders, but since you had to pay so much to play, at least we let you finish with the same ball you started with. You want an ocean, go to the beach. you want beauty, visit a garden. You want vista, go to the mountains. You want memories, take a camera. This course is for golfers, not tourists.

   I've played Cruden Bay and Pinehurst 2, you are no Cruden Bay.

  Anthony



 

[Anthony Gray]

   Jim...why not just stick some buckets and car tires on the range to determine the best ball strikers. Who needs a golf course for that. Who needs two hoops in a game of HORSE to determine the purest shooter? Golf is an experience not just about ball striking. So give us a scenic experience, a garden a beach or even a burn and a castle. Make golf an experience. P2 lacks compaired to other experiences out there. Its not garbage but its not Castle Stuart either. Try to get a meal at the hotel if the reseraunt is not open.

  Anthony

[jim_lewis]

Anthony:

I guess it just depends on what experience you value. To me the experience is in the course, not the surround. I've have played a lot of the great courses in the world and would you believe, some of my best "experiences" have occurred here on Pinehurst #2. I enjoy little as much as that rare good round on #2. It may not surprise you that I also love Carnoustie and that my favorite teacher in school was plain, unattractive, humorless, and very demanding. I also enjoy a great view, but I don't need it to enjoy a well designed golf course. I also do not think the price or the other amenities at the resort have any bearing on the quality of the course.

ps: I love Cruden Bay too.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

I guess it just depends on what experience you value. To me the experience is in the course, not the surround. I've have played a lot of the great courses in the world and would you believe, some of my best "experiences" have occurred here on Pinehurst #2. I enjoy little as much as that rare good round on #2. It may not surprise you that I also love Carnoustie and that my favorite teacher in school was plain, unattractive, humorless, and very demanding. I also enjoy a great view, but I don't need it to enjoy a well designed golf course. I also do not think the price or the other amenities at the resort have any bearing on the quality of the course.

ps: I love Cruden Bay too.

  Since I am not a high skilled player I need the other stuff to make it memerable. I've played P2 four times. Eagled 10 with a lay-up 2nd shot I accidently pulled onto the green. Great fun, just jaded and like the girl with the junk in the trunk.The ugliest teacher I ever had was in spelling.

  Anthony

[Mike Cirba]

With all due respect to the well-argued dissenting opinions, I played Pinehurst #2 in December this year for the the first and some weeks ago wrote the following here on GCA.  

I'll stand by it.

Also, I'm sure C&C will certainly help the playability and visual presentation of today's course, but the bones of undistilled, contemplative creative genius are already there.

This is what I wrote;


So simple and classic in presentation, I left Pinehurst #2 wondering why golf course architecture needed to be any "louder" to be heard.
 
Pinehurst #2 is a transcendent course, where the sum of the parts are so less than the whole.   One can quibble that some detail features should probably be less defined and stylistically distinct, and my understanding is that the resort is having Coore & Crenshaw in to add some of the rough-hewn look back to the place, and one can quibble that this hole or that might not rise to a certain level of greatness or distinctiveness.
 
However, aside from some ill-advised home building along some of the interior perimeters of the course, one is left with the sense of being in a special place of worship and repose...a cathedral or church or synagogue if you will, and a course that is as close to perfection for me as my sometimes critical, jaded eyes have seen.
 
Playable by anyone, it is a course one could never tire of, and that inspires deeper understanding of the game through the application of simple truths repeated variously and vigorously throughout with the dogmatic persistence of an enlightened zealot, and if that isn't a "10", then it probably should be.

[Anthony Gray]

With all due respect to the well-argued dissenting opinions, I played Pinehurst #2 in December this year for the the first and some weeks ago wrote the following here on GCA.  

I'll stand by it.

Also, I'm sure C&C will certainly help the playability and visual presentation of today's course, but the bones of undistilled, contemplative creative genius are already there.

This is what I wrote;


So simple and classic in presentation, I left Pinehurst #2 wondering why golf course architecture needed to be any "louder" to be heard.
 
Pinehurst #2 is a transcendent course, where the sum of the parts are so less than the whole.   One can quibble that some detail features should probably be less defined and stylistically distinct, and my understanding is that the resort is having Coore & Crenshaw in to add some of the rough-hewn look back to the place, and one can quibble that this hole or that might not rise to a certain level of greatness or distinctiveness.
 
However, aside from some ill-advised home building along some of the interior perimeters of the course, one is left with the sense of being in a special place of worship and repose...a cathedral or church or synagogue if you will, and a course that is as close to perfection for me as my sometimes critical, jaded eyes have seen.
 
Playable by anyone, it is a course one could never tire of, and that inspires deeper understanding of the game through the application of simple truths repeated variously and vigorously throughout with the dogmatic persistence of an enlightened zealot, and if that isn't a "10", then it probably should be.

  Well said. But would be better if it was said louder.

  Anthony

[Mike Cirba]

Anthony,

Tooche'

[Bill Shamleffer]

Crenshaw restoring Pinehurst No. 2 to former glory
By Eddie Southards


http://www.fayobserver.com/Articles/2010/03/18/984083

"What Crenshaw and his partner, Bill Coore, have been hired to do is to reduce the amount of manicured rough and replace it with sandy waste areas and native wiregrass. The idea is to widen the fairways to play as they did from 1935 to 1960."

[Steve Kline]

Anthony:

What if I told you I designed the greens at #2?  I snuck over there one night about 30 years ago with my magic wand and changed all of Donald's greens to what you see today,  Lewis greens. Would that make the better.......or worse? OK, so it wasn't me, but I would like to shake the hand of the genius who is responsible for what we have today, some of the greatest green complexes in the world, who the hell ever he was.

  I would say Lewis needs to get some credit for P2. The first several holes are the same just different distances. Much like Dornach 3 4 5. Same topo only different length 2nd shots. The other holes have very little quirk or memorable features. That one par 3 has a severe slope to the green but not much is memorable. And you're golfing in a neighborhood. Al you hear is ROSS ROSS ROSS when talking about the greens then you hear those arn't his greens. Confusing.

  Anthony

I'm sorry Anthony but your comments show you just don't much about the course. Posting on my computer at work is difficult because the text box bounces around all over but I'll try to show why you are wrong later.

[Matt_Ward]

For all the naysayers of #2 -- the issue boils down to the amt of times one has played the course.

A one time visit will likely not help much and no doubt produce the comments that have been already posted.

#2, is like TOC -- frequent plays do make a big time difference.

[Chip Gaskins]

Matt

fair enough, but i can say i enjoyed The Old Course a zillion times more the first time i played it versus #2.

[Matt_Ward]

Chip:

#2 is also hurt by the outrageous rates charged to play there.

When I was a student at USC back in the late 70's / early 80's you could play the place without taking a second mortgage.

Couple the price with the less than stellar turf conditions which have happened quite frequently and how the course is presented and it's quite fair for people to post what they have.

I've played #2 when it does shine brightly.

The amt of rounds played there does make a different when course preparation provides a platform for the course to shine.

[Jud_T]

Anthony:

Yep, that's we way Donald and I designed them. Runoffs on most greens. We don't tolerate, let alone reward, half-ass approach shots. Hit a well struck iron to the proper spot on the green and take out your putter. Hit a mediocre shot and you can still take out youor putter, except you will be putting up a slope to reach the green on your next shot. At least we didn't put water or heavy rough around the greens (like the lazy modern architects do), so you still have a chance to salvage a par if you have missed the green on the correct side. These greens were designed to separate the ball stikers from the pretenders, but since you had to pay so much to play, at least we let you finish with the same ball you started with. You want an ocean, go to the beach. you want beauty, visit a garden. You want vista, go to the mountains. You want memories, take a camera. This course is for golfers, not tourists.

Can we just archive this and bring it up every time it's relevant (which is about every 5th topic)?

[Jon Spaulding]

And here I was, all worked up thinking this was a thread about Thine Emporer playing #2 in the buff. Sigh......total lack of bingo.

It's a great place to play. Obviously the mow lines are a mess, even non-beard pulling types can see that.

As good of a approach shot golf course as I have seen, many as good or better than those found at NGLA. The sphincter factor is incredibly high at both, which is a real turn on to me (in a non-prison sort of way).

Insert some interest off the tee, and it joins my top tier very quickly.

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