[mark chalfant]

 ...over its more famous sibling in Rochester-  Oak Hill East ?

Thanks !

[John Blain]

Mark,
Oak Hill west is terrific and in a lot of ways more enjoyable than the east. It's also more of a pure Ross course with interesting greens and a nice variety of holes. The hard holes on the west are just as tough as the hard holes on the east, there are just fewer of them. In addition it is a simple course to walk as is the east.
I love the east as well but it has been bastardized over the years and I still don't care for the "new" Fazio holes that were built for the 1980 PGA.

They are both enjoyable but if I had to play one of them everyday it would the west. It's simply a pleasure to play.

John

[mark chalfant]

John

The strech  from 6- 8 looks very  fun to play.   I think  6 West is named " Camelback"   What do you feel are some of West's most interesting holes  and greens surfaces  ?

thanks for your post



ps   #13  "Twin Hills" looks to have some neat  features

[JNC Lyon]

I found this topic while searching for threads on "West Hill" and felt compelled to respond.

I do prefer the West Course to the bigger East Course at Oak Hill.  I think this is so for a couple of reasons:

1) The land on the west course is more dramatic.  The land on the East is great.  It features gentle rises and falls that provide golf on a grand scale.  However, the land on the West is swooping.  It is more dramatic, more wild, more fun.  The abrupt hills and micro features yield several greens that are elevated well above the fairway.  In fact, every non-par three hole features a green that is higher than the preceding fairway!  The land and the green sites that it creates make the course very unique.  I have played several Ross courses, and none of them have such features that are comparable to the West Course.  Finally, Ross utilized the most dramatic land on the long par four holes at 7, 13, 15.  These three holes, along with the long 3rd, are all better than any long par four on the East Course.

2) The interior contours of the West are far more severe and interesting than those on the East.  Sure the East has a few severe greens (12-14 come to mind), but none of these compare to the wild West greens.  The 4th Hole features the most unique green on the course. It is a short par three with a pronounced horseshoe tier that forces the player to find the correct subsection of the green.  Many have praised the 7th at Teugega, which possesses a similar green design.  Yet the West Course's 4th green is much more dramatic and FAR superior to the one at Teugega.  There is also the sideways two-tiered green at the 1st, the thumbprint green at the 2nd, the double-mounded 3rd green, a second horseshoe tier at the 6th, the benched green at the 7th, the indescribable 9th, the three-tiered green at the 8th, the double plateau at the 11th, the L-shaped tier at the 13th, the mound in the middle of the 14th green, and the elevated bowl at the 15th.  I have never seen a set of greens like those at Oak Hill West.

3) Oak Hill West maintains the integrity of Ross's original design.  The course has lost several bunkers through the years.  Several, such as the cross bunkers on the second shot of the par five 6th, would be very welcome today.  Yet the tees, fairways, and greens all remain, with only one non-original green at the 9th.  While there are trees on the West, they do not clog playing angles as they do on the East.

I am a big fan of the East Course.  Yet given a late afternoon in August with nothing but golf course in front of me, I will take the West over the East any day.

[Kevin Lynch]

Since I've only played the East, I can only add some "hearsay" evidence.  My host for the day told me that his perception was that most of the "daily" members preferred to play the West Course.  The "Corporate" membership seemed to utilize the East course more, mainly since it was the one their guests wanted to see.

This is a very interesting discussion, and really speaks to me how much "inertia" there is in course ratings.  The impact of "tradition" and "history" seem to keep courses ranked higher than they may deserve if it were humanly possible to for raters to judge a course "blind" to it's prior ratings.

Still - I have to say I loved playing the East.  Standing on the 18th fairway facing the wall that fronts the Green is pretty amazing (not so amazing is having to flop up from the bottom of the wall after fatting your approach).

[Ronald Montesano]

And yet, Mr. Kevin Lynch is a big fan of crazy, sweeping putts and would probably love the West Course...I've played neither so, in case Pat Craig is lurking, I won't give an opinion.  However, I must say that I would choose the West over the East if given only one play.  I  walked the East during the 2003 PGA, so I know that much about it.  Might as well see the West, right?

[JNC Lyon]

Kevin,

The 18th, well, I'll just say it is one of my least favorites on the East. The green is too extreme for everyday play.  When the green is firm is downwind, the golfer cannot hold a full pitching wedge on the left side.  The flop shot is even worse.  I do not understand why the bank is not shaved down.  For me, it is just a waste of some wild terrain.  I mourn the loss of the old Ross green that was 30 yards closer to the clubhouse.  I much prefer the double plateau green at the 17th.  The entrance to the green is probably too narrow, but chasing a long shot onto the green is one of the best feelings in the world.

Part of the reason the West gets so little credit was that it was neglected in conditioning for many years.  It was overgrown in several places.  There was no grass on the short par three 8th green.  Things did not get better until the early 90s.  I think most members will play the West more often than the East.  Yet I think most state publicly that the East is better. It must be better because it has hosted three US Opens, right?

Anyone who loves big sweeping putts will love the West.  I just cannot say enough good things about the West greens.  And cynicism aside, the East is still a treat.  What did you think of the plateau greens at 3, 9, 12, or 14? The crowned green at the 10th?  The amphitheater at the 13?  Yes, the East is special.  But I will still take the West.

[mark chalfant]

JNC  and Kevin,

Thanks for your replies. I prefer the West course over the East. I especially like the sequences from  #4-9  and 12-15. There is just  an amazing variety of holes that glide and explode over terrain that  is often rugged. 7,13, and 15 are superb par fours that feature stern uphill approaches. The  interior contours on the Wests  greens are fabuolus. I think Oak Hill East 3,5,9, and 10 are very fine holes but for me West is the undisputed champion of Kilbourn Road !

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

what I really like about the West is that you feel you are playing the original golf course and not some "updated" version of what Ross had in mind.
The East is a great , tough, man sized golf course, but shows signs of being chopped , added to and revamped everywhere that you look.
The Fazio addition does not esthetically fit at all, although does provide very challenging golf holes, the extended par threes have in many ways taken away from the character of the holes...and the entire course feels like a course set up for a major at all costs.
Dont get me wrong, I still love the course as a challenge ans as a measure of just how tough a golf course can be.
In fact from the tips it is as tough a golf course as I have ever played...I cannot think of any other course I have played that has as many par and a half holes for my game as Oak Hill does...and I dont mean par and a half in the birdie direction

[JNC Lyon]

Mark,

What do you like about the 5th Hole on the East?  I think it is one of the worst holes on the course as a Fazio addition.  Interested to hear your thoughts.  You definitely hit the nail on the head regarding the West.  The terrain and greens make it great.  The more courses you play, the more you realize how special the terrain is on the West Course.

Michael,

The East is essentially a par 75 from the tips.  1, 7, 9, and 18 would be par fives on most golf courses.  Even from the 6,500-yard white tees the course is damn tough.  It just does not flow like it should.  Not only do the Fazio greens not fit, but the renovation disrupted the flow of the routing.  The new par threes at 6 and 15 were the main culprits in this.

[Mark Chaplin]

This sounds a touch like the Olympia Fields North and South debate, during our club tour last year we had the honour of playing both. OF North is undoubtedly a great championship course but for many of us OF South post refurb was more fun to play.

Could the same be true at Oak Hill? For the average & better than average club players championship courses are just too tough and the second but in no way lesser courses can be more fun to play.

[JNC Lyon]

This sounds a touch like the Olympia Fields North and South debate, during our club tour last year we had the honour of playing both. OF North is undoubtedly a great championship course but for many of us OF South post refurb was more fun to play.

Could the same be true at Oak Hill? For the average & better than average club players championship courses are just too tough and the second but in no way lesser courses can be more fun to play.

I think this might be the case at Oak Hill.  Part of the problem at OHCC is that too many members and their guests play off the blues (championship tees up to the 1998 Amateur) or the blacks (from which three players broke par in the 2003 PGA).  The club would do well to adopt the standard of many GB&I clubs.  When I arrived at Sandwich today, the caddiemaster informed me that I would playing from the Weekday yardages (about 6,300 yards).  It was clearly for my own good, seeing as could not even break 80 from those forward tees.

Tee issues not withstanding, the West at OH is just more fun than the East.  The trees are less prevalent, the greens are more interesting.  Most importantly, there is an ebb and flow to the routing of the West.  A few tough holes are invariably followed with one or two birdie opportunities.  The East is simply one bludgeoning hole after another.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

JNC..
You left out number 17...in last years Williams event that was the hardest par four I have ever played.
i agree the wind was into us, but I could barely make the corner leaving me a good solid 275 to the green!!!!!

I agree 100% with the Fazio evaluation, the rock work around the lake resembles late 20th century stuff versus the true tilemine of the original layout, I just dont understand how the members allowed that look to prevail!!!
I still love the course though, because as I said it is a very humbling test of golf.....makes one feel inadequate...which is oksy for me, I dont mind realising how bad I am sometimes!!!

[JNC Lyon]

JNC..
You left out number 17...in last years Williams event that was the hardest par four I have ever played.
i agree the wind was into us, but I could barely make the corner leaving me a good solid 275 to the green!!!!!

I agree 100% with the Fazio evaluation, the rock work around the lake resembles late 20th century stuff versus the true tilemine of the original layout, I just dont understand how the members allowed that look to prevail!!!
I still love the course though, because as I said it is a very humbling test of golf.....makes one feel inadequate...which is oksy for me, I dont mind realising how bad I am sometimes!!!

I included 17 as a par five.  It's one of those holes where 4 is a birdie and 5 is a bogey.

As for the rock wall on 15, it needs to be in place to keep the green from collapsing into the water.  The wall has to be reinforced every few years.  Essentially, it is a green that should not have been built where it is today.  It is a low area that was very swampy before the Fazio renovation.  Ross built the green on the plateau to the left for a reason.  He knew the green would not drain well and was not sustainable in the low area.  Of course, the club and Fazio did not care about any of this when they built the green.  This problem occurred on the 5th and 6th greens as well.  All three greens washed out multiple times in their early years.  The club rerouted the creek and reinforced the sides of the greens to avoid future mishaps.  Of course, such manmade formalizations usually revert back to their natural state after a few years.

The whole fiasco with the greens makes you realize how awful the Fazio changes really were.  Of course, George Fazio wanted to move the greens at 1 and 10 down to the creek's edge as well.  I am glad the club showed some sense of restraint in those areas.

I am glad you got to play in the Williams.  It is a great event that often draws some of the very best players in country.  The course tends to be in peak condition and difficulty in the fall, so you got the East Course in its highest gear!

[Dan Herrmann]

Don't forget the Oak Hill bowling alleys!   Two great golf courses and your own private kegling in the winter.  Nice!

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