So How Big of a DEAL is it?

[JNC Lyon]

I was fortunate enough to make a day trip down to Royal Cinque Ports with two of GCA's finest, Tony Muldoon and Scott Warren.  I absolutely loved the place.  Seeing as Deal is my second experience with links golf, I am probably not the best authority.  However, I think Deal is absolutely tremendous as a golf course.  It is hard to imagine better terrain for golf than the land found in the middle of property, particularly on 2-6 and 15-17.  Overall, the course was a great experience.

There is not a ton I can say about Deal that has not already been written.  Yet I will make a few observations that I think might be worthwhile.

1) The middle holes on both nines get lots of attention.  The 3rd, 6th, and the final stretch get a lot of praise, and deservedly so.  However, I was very surprised by how good the first two holes are.  

The 1st is a great way to start out a round.  It is not a highly strategic hole from tee to green.  Yet it possesses the right length and fairway width to get off to a smooth start.  The golfer gets the first taste of Deal charm at the green.  It was one of my very favorite green complexes on the course.  It does possess the dramatic short game options of some of the others.  In fact, it is an embarrassment not to hit the first green in regulation due to its size.  Yet the green is brilliant!  The rolls and wave appear that they have been there forever.  The green lulls the player into a sense of security.  However, he can easily walk away with a 5, as I did on my first try.

The golf only gets better at the second.  I just loved the subtle split-level fairway.  High right gives the best look and angle to the green, whereas low left is fine but undesirable.  The little wrinkle on the front left of the green does not match the contours of later holes, yet it is vexing nonetheless.  The first two holes make for a great start.  They were a refreshing change from the slow start that seems to be a theme of English golf.

2) I have played two links courses: Deal and Sandwich.  These courses occupy the same stretch of coastline and sit within a few hundred yards of each other.  Therefore, it is natural for me to compare the two.  I do not believe that Sandwich is certainly better than Deal, or vice versa.  I will say that Sandwich has no holes that compare to the 3rd and 16th.  After heading back out for an extra 8 holes, I really got an appreciation for the short game options on those holes.  A golfer could stand on those greens for hours and have endless entertainment.  I would love watch groups go through and play approaches into the 3rd and wrestle with the large mound in front of the 16th.  While a Sandwich has a collection of very, very good holes (4, 5, 8, 9, 13, 15, 17), none of those compete with 3 or 16 at Deal. Thoughts?

3) 3 and 16 certainly get the attention, as they should.  Yet 17 is not far behind in terms of interest and strategy.  I certainly believe it is the best 4 on the course.  The blind second to the green is forever a mystery.  The green itself is elusive and gorgeous.  Another hole for close inspection.

[Bill_McBride]

Deal is a whole lot of fun, some of which you outlined.

What about the half pipe green at 12 and the tee ball at 13 with the cross bunkers?

What about that crazy fall away green at 15?

Did you play 3 as a par 4 or par 5?

I also loved the members and the wonderful old clubhouse.

Deal is definitely the REAL DEAL.  Looking forward to 2 nights in the dormy house and 3 rounds of golf in September.   

[JNC Lyon]

Bill,

I loved the greens at 12 and 15.  15 in particular is a real gem.  I guess I just preferred 17 to both of those holes.  The terrain at 17 is a little more wild.  Furthermore, the 17th green sort of combines the best aspects of both the 12th and the 15th into one mega-green.

13th is a good looking hole from the tee.  The green is more conventional than some of the others.  Yet its simple back-to-front pitch remains appealing.  I just thought it lacked something that the holes had.  I guess I would not rank it in the top half of Deal par fours.

Scott and I determined that the 3rd is a par five.  I guess the idea is that the hole usually plays downwind.  However, we played the hole into the wind both times.  Furthermore, when I played Sandwich, the wind was also blowing from the North, making 3 into the breeze once again.  I do not think the hole has any business being called a par four.

[Scott Warren]

I was really glad we got those eight extra holes in after the round, John, but a pity we didn't have time to play #6 as well.

I agree with most of what you've said. 17 as the best two-shotter? Maybe. I think it belongs in the discussion along with 6 and 15.

That question you asked me about whether I prefer 3 or 16 has been eating at me since we parted at Bank. I'm still not satisfied with the answer I gave you. Leave it with me!

[JNC Lyon]

It is still 16 for me.  The green site and the mound are just maddeningly brilliant.  That mound is the best feature on the golf course for me.  The question still dogs me a bit as well.  The green at 3 is just so cool!  It will be great when they can establish a short right pin.  Nevertheless, it is 16 by a nose in my book.  I think the gunner's hut puts it over the top.

[Mark Chaplin]

John,

I'm pleased you enjoyed Deal, your observations are certainly well thought out.

The 3rd is more fun when the course dries out so you can feed the ball in from the left, straight nearly always ends in the big hollow short right. The feed is never an exact science though!

One of the changes Gordon and Barney have been making over the past 5 years is gently expanding the greens. The 3rd is slowly filling in the right hollow. The is now a fabulous back right pin position on the 7th, a hole I was saying to Scott on Thursday I think is under rated. The green will feed from short right and long left. Fall short into the left hollow and the texas wedge is severely tested. The 13th has some new and dangerous back pin positions, over cook it and the shot back needs the most exquisite touch.

Ahh the 16th.........make sure you aim at the distant bunker centre left. Anything straight or slightly right will end up in the right rough. I flushed a 3 wood the other day right centre of the fairway and ended up in an impossible lie in the right rough. The bank in front of the  green rarely takes a runner unless it's a low chasing cut. What a green though slopes, hollows and humps the green has many interesting pins especially the deadly front right just before the slope off to the wartime concrete cycle path - built to allow the troops to get to the gun emplacements quickly.

17 tempts the long left tee shot and suprisingly the front left bank will release the ball to chase onto the green. Vardon's Parlour gives a flat lie and a sight of the top of the flag stick, however anything but a perfect shot will finish short right with a chip or more likely putt with masses of break.

Deal isn't a monster but the green complexes require perfect iron play or a delightful imagination and touch to save par. It is fun to play and definately The Real Deal!
 

[Scott Warren]

Swampy D,

John Knows the hollow short right of the 3rd green alright.

In the morning he tried to hit a US of A high pitvh right at the pin, flubbed it and had another one from the same spot after it rolled back to his feet.

In the afternoon he hit a skiddy pitch 45 degrees left of the flag and fed it off the side slope to three feet.

He is learning!

7 is definitely underrated, as are the par threes, I reckon.

But the more I play 9 and 11, the more convinced I become that they need a greater point of difference, starting with some rebunkering on #9. I'd love to see the bloke ballsy enough to fly the LHS fairway bunker get a big reward. As it is he gets told "Awesome, you're obviously alright at carrying bunkers, here's two more to fly. Enjoy!"

[JNC Lyon]

Let me state for the record that my pitch and run at the 3rd was unintentionally played well to the left.  It worked well with a little luck.  Like you say, Mark, the feed is not an exact science.  Nor are any of the short game shots at Deal.  It comes down to this: it is not as much about executing shots as it is choosing the type of shot that will work out best.

I can see Deal as a real test from the whites.  18 at 457? 15 at 450?  Brutal, monster proportions in fact.  But the fun still remains.  The greens are outrageous enough to inspire any imaginative golfer.

I don't know how I feel about 7 yet.  I think the holes at the end of the course would need a few more plays to really understand.  I feel I know those 8 holes we played a second time so much better than the other ten!

[Mark Woodger]

john, i am glad you enjoyed deal. as i sit in my brooklyn apartment with it raining for 12 straight hours there is nowhere i would rather be!

But the more I play 9 and 11, the more convinced I become that they need a greater point of difference, starting with some rebunkering on #9. I'd love to see the bloke ballsy enough to fly the LHS fairway bunker get a big reward. As it is he gets told "Awesome, you're obviously alright at carrying bunkers, here's two more to fly. Enjoy!"

i agree they are two similar holes but i always thought that was the point of the 9th in that there is no real benefit to carrying the bunker on the LHS and its about being able get to the right hand side of the fairways so the bunkers are not in the way of your second shot. thats how i view the strategy of the hole. all the better if you can play with a draw (which i can't)  and shorten your second shot.

but the 11th there is a benefit on carrying the LHS fairway bunker because it takes you away from the adverse camber of the right hand side that pushes the ball towards the rough and secondly the down slope on the back of the bunker can really kick the ball on a good few yards and shorten what i think is a deceptively long second shot to the 11th.

[Mark Chaplin]

9 now has a new sea wall tee extending the hole around 35-40 yards, suddenly the short right bunker - yes there is one and it's deep - comes into play with a slightly high cut that takes the breeze. The hole is about to become one of the toughest pars in the prevailing wind.

John anyone who knows me realises I'm 4-5 handicap tee to 100 yards away, 24 with a wedge and +2 with the off green putter. The right hollow on 3 is classic putting ground as was my 55 yarder on 11 from the tee side of the ancient highway.........it ended up about 8 feet away!

Mark isn't it about time you treated yourself to an Easter meeting??

[Scott Warren]

That's definitely the best way to play #9, Mark W, I just wonder about the merits of a hole with six bunkers whereby there is a route to the hole that allows you to avoid having to think about any of them.

It makes it a no-brainer on the tee, for mine.

You're right about #11, too. Flying that bunker definitely has major benefits. And from the sea wall tee that hole grows an extra leg, but in 13 months of membership I've never seen the tee up there (played a few times from up there though...).

[Mark Woodger]

Mark isn't it about time you treated yourself to an Easter meeting??

i wish i could but alas i don't think i am going to make it for any of the big comps this year. next year i hope.

[JNC Lyon]

Off the green putting?  That's a "Texas Wedge" in the States.  It is clearly very useful on the links courses, and any Texas Wedge over the Roman Road is a site to behold, I am sure.  In fact, I forgot about Caesar's Avenue that crosses the 11th fairway.  I always add points for historical artifacts on golf holes.  It has nothing to do with architecture, of course, but it adds to the spirit of the game, no?

As for 9 and 11, I remain ambivalent.  Somehow, I liked the look of 9.  Nevertheless, the bunker scheme creates anti-strategy more than anything else.  10 pulls off the "lure of the flag" concept well because a drive right flirts with trouble.  Furthermore, the curve of the hole and the green are graceful and effortless.  On the other hand, 9 is a bit awkward in playing angles, and there is no penalty on the outside of the dogleg.  Nor is the green as interesting as the 10th.  My feelings are less strong about the 11th.  I love the pulpit tee and the Roman road.  Yet I am having a tough time recalling much else about the hole only a few hours later.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I loved the greens at 12 and 15.  15 in particular is a real gem.  I guess just preferred 17 to both of those holes.  The think the terrain at 17 is a little more wild.  Furthermore, the 17th green sort of combines the best aspects of both the 12th and the 15th into one mega-green.

13th is a good looking hole from the tee.  The green is more conventional than some of the others.  Yet its simple back-to-front pitch remains appealing.  I just thought it lacked something that the holes had.  I guess I would not rank it in the top half of Deal par fours.

Scott and I determined that the 3rd is a par five.  I guess the idea is that the hole usually plays downwind.  However, we played the hole into the wind both times.  Furthermore, when I played Sandwich, the wind was also blowing from the North, making 3 into the breeze once again.  I do not think the hole has any business being called a par four.

I think the club built a new tee that definitely makes #3 a par 5.  We played it up as a 450 yard par 4 and it was a brute.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Good to hear that there's someone else, who believes Deal may just be better than Sandwich. It is not, of course, but if you play both courses one time, you are led to believe that. There are some extremely unusual holes at Deal, whereas Sandwich is of a steady, high quality from #1 to #18. But that steadiness makes for a little less drama than Deal, where you have your highlight holes. So after playing my first round on both courses last year in the BUDA, I thought the same thing. But upon further reflection I did put Sandwich ahead of Deal - go through it hole by hole, consider the championship merits and the total seclusion in many parts of the course and you'll find that Sandwich is the real Deal, but only ever so slightly ;-)

The bank in front of the green [at 16] rarely takes a runner unless it's a low chasing cut.

And here I was thinking that my 5 wood second shot that rolled up and made the green was what the members do all the time! Made the 3 footer for par, btw

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

consider the championship merits... and you'll find that Sandwich is the real Deal, but only ever so slightly ;-)

I concede Sandwich is a better golf course all told, but can you elaborate a bit on what "championship merits" are, how they give one course an edge over another and finally how Sandwich has "championship merits" that Deal doesn't?

[Mark Chaplin]

Ulrich the little flat piece of fairway on the 16th is at sea level so is always a little greener than the rest of the course, thus the ball rarely takes a hard first bounce up the slope.

MHO having played both courses a substantial number of times is thus;

Sandwich is a much harder course from the tee, this is in a large part due to the Opens from 1981. The back tees are further back and the bunkering has been moved up the fairways to 280-320yds out. The course is in a massive piece of land, has some big dunes and is very secluded. There are 2 crazy greens in the 4th with hardly any variation in pinnable positions and the 9th with lots of crazy slope. The tees and fairways are always in perfect condition, less so the greens. The new greens use rather unimaginative tiers rather than internal slopes 3, 8 & 14.

Deal is far easier off the tee with most of the fairway bunkering out of play for the better player in reasonable conditions - 2, 9, 11, 12, 13 & 15. There are more interesting greens 1, 3, 7, 12, 15, 16 & 17 and better run offs and slopes around the greens. The site isn't sexy and there are no real views. The greens are always in great nick, less so the fairways and tees. 3, 6 & 16 are quirky but very good holes, 6 being a classic short par 4 where 3s are very rare indeed.

Finally Deal is a very comfortable and understated place, golfers who appreciate links golf and a dash of tradition can easily come under it's spell..........as many GCA'ers will attest!

[JNC Lyon]

Ulrich,

I am not sure that Sandwich presents steady quality from 1 to 18.  To be honest, I was not inspired by Sandwich until I stepped on the 5th tee.  I know that 2 and 4 are solid holes, but there was something cold about them that I did not like.  4 has the huge dune off the tee, but the fairway is almost dead flat.  The green is wild, but I still rank the greens at 6, 8, 9, 10, 13, 15, and 17 ahead of it.  1 and 3 are very average holes to me.  I am not sure how Pat-Ward Thomas chose the first at Sandwich as his favorite opener in the world.  I prefer the first at Deal.  3 is not a bad hole, but it is very conventional and a poor replacement for the great Sahara.

I agree with Scott: I am not sure what you mean by "championship merits."  Does pro golf factor into my judgment of architecture? I hope not.  The respective championship records of Sandwich and Deal have no bearing on how fun the courses are for everyday golfers.  I admit that it will be fun to watch Sandwich on TV next year.  However, that should not affect my judgment of the golf course.

[Jamie Barber]

I think Mark summed it up perfectly. I enjoyed RSG but it can beat you up if you have a bit off an off day; a real tough test. Deal is no pushover I feel it gives you a chance and the quirk is charming.

That said, and maybe I'm in a minority of 1 but the 1st at Deal really doesn't float my boat at all. I'd rather walk straight to the 2nd tee and start there (and no I've haven't hit it in the carpark ... yet!)),

[Mark Pearce]

John,

For me 4 at Sandwich might be the best hole on either course.  I'm puzzled by the desription of a flat fairway (though it's no roller coaster) but it's a hole that requires a great drive (and is a great driving hole) and a marvelous approach to a superb green site.

[JNC Lyon]

Mark,

I will have to re-examine the 4th when I play at Sandwich tomorrow.  Honestly, I was a bit surprised that I did not like the 4th more.  I have read much praise about the hole.  Yet it did not excite me the way some of the other holes did.  I feel I definitely need to re-evaluate the hole.

Jamie,

What did you think about the first green at Deal?  I think it has some of the most imaginative contours on the course.

[Mark Chaplin]

The 4th is a good par 4 and a poor par 5 as there is no real lay up area. From the back tee the tee shot needs to be directly over the big bunker to a flat fairway leaving a 200'ish approach. Go straight over the left bunker and the ball will kick left into the hidden left bunker. Whilst the green is large most of it is unpinnable. For me like several Sandwich holes especially 2, 5 & 7 the test is off the tee.

Mark Pearce - a pair of well presented mounds and you've fallen for her, 4 is good looking but it's the meat between 2 very ordinary holes.

For me Sandwich gets into it's stride from the 8th which is by far the toughest on both courses.

[Dan Moore]

Looking forward to getting to know Deal much better on my return visit in 3 weeks.

Clubhouse


3rd Green from 4th Tee


Half Pipe

[Scott Warren]

They're some pretty great pics, Dan. Looking forward to meeting up at Rye.

[Ulrich Mayring]

"Championship merits" to me means that the course offers an additional dimension in that it can accommodate the Pro game. This is a good thing for us average players, unless it makes the course too difficult for us to enjoy. But Sandwich does a great job to offer a course where I can play and Tiger can play - and for me it's simply cool to see how he plays it and to recognize all the features and how both of us negotiate them.

Deal is a great course as well and, as I have it, only slightly below Sandwich. However, I never see Deal on TV, so it is lacking that dimension. Through no fault of its own, perhaps, but the dimension is lacking and at the very top only little things can differentiate great from greater. Seclusion is another example - not a big thing at all, but a nice feature at Sandwich that Deal doesn't have as much of.

However, I will give the nod to Deal as far as greens go. So it is a close call. But for a hacker like myself, Sandwich's greens are just about good enough

Ulrich