What about this hole?

[Matt_Davenport]

I couldn't agree more with Tom that this green cries out to be restored to its rightful SKYline green status. Lumbering? Time to fire up the Husqvarna...

[TEPaul]

"In tournament qualifying at Pine Valley , the first five holes usually seal your doom or set you up for a good effort.  Two or three over after five isn't the end if you truly understand the golf course, as the "hang on " syndrome is most apparent early and late in the round at the "Valley"



Archie:

I think that is just so true with Crump Cup qualifying but frankly I never played in it with the more recent 36 hole qualifying. With me for about a dozen years or so it was always just one round and Man could that be intense. It's a bit academic but I'd say from my experiences if you get through the first five holes like you said it can be a bit of a slide the rest of the way if you use your head and hit decent shots or not that bad misses in the wrong places. I always felt if I limited things to a bogie here and there rather than being too aggressive I'd probably pick up some birdies without even playing for them. Golf's really funny that way, I think. The only hole that really got my attention after that was #10 and #14. I don't remember going into the water hazard on #14 much at all and so it was really #10 that concerned me and getting in that long left bunker. Try to hit a shot to the green from there and fail and it could really get messy score-wise because even the Rules-relief options couldn't do much for you from there after that.

By the way, how many times did you see a Crump Cup qualifier get screwed up in that long left bunker and after trying for the green from there and failing just take their medicine and putt the ball to the front of the bunker and just go from there? I think for people who don't play that much stroke play tournament golf but mostly just match play or match play recreational golf just even trying to talk yourself into something like that can be pretty unfamiliar, foreign and hard.

One year I was qualifying with Tom Yellin from New York; remember him? He was doing fine and on #14 he had a major train-wreck. I was waiting for him to explode but he didn't say a word---not an iota of emotion. He just went over to 15 teed off and made a birdie or two coming home, got into the Crump flight and lost in the finals. Just watching that was one of the better learning experiences I ever had in tournament golf.

I hope that some on here don't think we're being overbearing or trying to show we know more than others or more than most or whatever by discussing this kind of stuff and these experiences on here; I get some real satisfaction that some like Mac Plumart and Eric Smith and maybe others actually enjoy the information to put into their memory banks or their architectural educations.

God I really do love that place. I hate rankings and there are a good half or full dozen great courses I know and have played and just love too but at the end of it all there is really only one Pine Valley----it just never seems to disappoint anyone, not ever.

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Tom that's quite nice of you, at one time I felt that I knew the Valley as well as anyone. Tom Elder gave me so many good loops and Charlie Raudenbush (PGA ) let me play with so many good players that I was truly blessed watching them all. It is one of the only places to this day that local knowledge is odds on against talent in determining the outcome of a match so you really got involved as a caddy. Sully was a better player but didn't have as long a misspent youth there.

The place was / is so damn interesting that even now I can remember small details vividly , which speaks to the architecture .  I do appreciate your love of the game and the golf course, as do others here. Lucky you to have a good friend like John Ott who truly knew lay up yardage , he was the greatest coffin corner golfer ever. What a wonderful guy he was!


Definitely remember Yellin, a fine player, but the guys might like the story of Joel Hirsch's Crump Qualifier also.  Joel made sixteen pars one day and shot 83,  making a thirteen on eight from 95 yards out and an eight on number fourteen. Hirsch was quite a good player, llike Yellin, and shook it off as well. We've talked of  "   Bator's  revenge" the year after Bob Lewis shot 64 in the qualifier and had the great superintendent  spitting nails for 364 days  waiting to get  even with the enemy golfers who had demeaned "his baby".  Jay Sigel's 77 was low qualifier that year , the infamous pin on the right front on three claiming multiple victims , one who flew home after 11 putting . Never will forget the sheen of the fairways and greens that day, as if the Jersey Devil himself (in cahoots with Bator of course) had sucked every last drop of water from the sandy soil .  He'll probably never admit it publicly, but Mr Ransome (Ernie)  surely got a chuckle for unleashing the beast on the unsuspecting qualifiers that day!

Hope we don't bore you guys with all this "Valley Stuff" but it really is special , an anomaly that has survived the test of time ! Thanks for letting us share the memories with you!

[Eric Smith]

Hope we don't bore you guys with all this "Valley Stuff"

Not possible Archie And thank YOU! I asked for stories in my opening post and this thread has been very illuminating in regards to what that second hole is all about as well as more 'inside' information from the likes of you, Tom, Sully, Saly, et al than we'd find anywhere else.


  

[TEPaul]

Archie;

I'm sorry; ARCHIE STRUTHERS!

Don't talk to me about Chicago's Hirsch. One day in the Crump he had me beat all day long and we went to the last with him one up. He completely inexplicably 3-puttoedied from about 15 feet right below a front right pin (how easy can it get?) I'd already had the wallet out, the glove off and all but we had to go to overtime. On #3 into about a 30 MPH wind I actually crashed it into the flagstick with like a 4 iron. Hirsch hit it so far left I thought I was about into the next day by the time he hit his shot but after a while here comes this shot from somewhere in the sand over on #4 over some trees, over some greenside bunkers and onto the green somewhere. He was away and he makes and it for par and I 3-putt from about fifteen feet.

That's golf and that's the Valley in another Crump Cup and another learning experience from the negative side.

When I came into the clubhouse, I will never forget Ott. He just said; "You did WHAT?"

[Chris Roselle]

Played PV last week and the course was in great shape for the first week of April.  Probably the best I have seen it this early in the year, especially considering the winter we had.  I had the TOUGHEST putt I have ever had in my entire life on #2.  Hole was located front right and I pulled my shot back left.  My caddy, Frank, gave me a great read (had to putt away from the hole all the way up to the back right of the green) and I was actually able to keep the putt on the green.  I have a bunch of pictures I would love to post and will once I figure everything out on this site since I am a newbie......

[Mike Hendren]

Funny, when I saw this:


I immediately thought of this:

[JC Jones]

I just laugh at these people on here who talk about Pine Valley not being ideal because it doesn't accommodate the games of all levels of golfers and it doesn't have bump in approaches on about 40% of its greens, it has some forced carries that were effectively significant back then, it has pretty much original width fairways that are big and/and because it has virtually no traditional rough on the course and never has had and such like.

I just saw this and forgive me for being late to the party. 

Tom,

I wouldn't laugh.  The reason why people on here talk about that is because those very factors are used to determine which courses should be ranked where.  Look at the posts of Tom Doak.  It is a widely held opinion here that great courses are "fun" for all kinds of golfers and provide many options.  Hell, look at the talk today of why ANGC is so good.

So, I think it can be difficult for some to understand why Pine Valley (ranked #1 in the universe every year) is not held to the same set of "ideals" as other courses.

I, of course, don't have a problem understanding these things, but on the other hand, I can't understand CBM's auto-biography so who am I, really....