What about this hole?

[Eric Smith]

What do those that have played here think of this hole?  Cramped as it looks in the picture or no? 

Any good stories about playing out of those ruts along either side of the fairway?  They Look menacing to me.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Eric

No another computer game from WGT.com. 

If not looks like an expensive maintenance problem

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

"Holy Bunkers, Batman!"   Where is this dog's porridge?   

[Mike Cirba]

Well...despite the howls of pain from others here, let me be the first to say I'd play it again.  






Quite joyfully in fact!!! 

[Mike Cirba]

p.s....It may also be the best, most original internal green contours in the game of golf.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

Wow, thats brave trying to join the Marines? Or just looking for ones lost youth The best what?, how many fingers am I holdin up - no wrong, one with half on either side

Melvyn

[Mike Cirba]

Melvyn,

Trust me, you'd like 'em. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

You mean the Marines?  Anyway who designed it, Idon't say Tom, no can't beleave it is Tom, no tell me its not Tom.

Melvyn 

[Sean Leary]

Been in bunkers on both sides. Layup for sure. Second shot is more uphill tha you can see here.

My understanding is that it used to be even tighter with trees growing into those bunkers. (Hint for those who can't figure out what course it is).

Last time I played it the back and middle tees were closed, and we played from the front tees (might have been a temp tee). Was reachable from the tee, and made for an interesting decision.

[Peter_Herreid]

Perhaps the single happiest two-putt I've ever had, from the very front right edge of that green to a hole about 9 feet from the very back left corner...

Just trying to figure out  which of the internal contours to use to eventually guide the ball back to that corner was an exercise in AP physics!

[TEPaul]

Eric:

Believe it or not less than ten years ago those bunkers along the left side of the fairway were essentially enveloped in trees. They did a good job of clearing them out. I'd prefer to see them keep on clearing on the left maybe 20 yards deep right on up to the green the way that hole originally was.

I firmly believe those bunkers are Crump's version of mini-imitation "Church-pews" ala Oakmont. The timing and reason fits perfectly----eg not long before he did them he had been the medalist at the Pennsylvania State Amateur Championship at Oakmont and Oakmont's W.C. Fownes was a prominent and opinion-giving member of Pine Valley.

In 1921 C.H. Alison recommended removing all the divisions between those bunkers and turning both areas (left and right) into a big sand area planted with clumps of marram grass. His logic was that would not be so penal as all those divided bunkers but penal enough. Initially the 1921 Advisory Committee decided to go with Alison's suggestion but then fortunately changed their minds and put that suggestion into the "Suggested changes on which we are undecided."

Fortunately those mini imitation "Church-pews" remain to this day and now that they cleared the trees out that enveloped them on the left they are very visible from the tee.

[TEPaul]

"What do those that have played here think of this hole?"


I'll tell you one significant thing about it, in my opinion----eg the approach shot up to that green just might be effectively the longest to actual yardage I've ever seen. The caddies of Pine Valley are essentially like no others in that there are no yardage markers on that course and so they tend to advise players with the qualification: "The yardage is X but it plays like...."

On that particular hole you learn from experience to take their advice as counter-intuitive as it sometimes seems.

Interestingly, the only other approach shot I'm aware of that is more this way than this one is this hole's imitation on PV's "Short Course." On that one I once hit a really solid 2 iron into the wind from right around 150 yards!! That would be about 60-70 yards less than I would hit the same shot on the flat in neutral conditions!   

[Rick Sides]

Besides being a very interesting hole from tee to green, the green itself is probably one of my favorite greens in golf.  The green is very unique and makes for many great pin placements.

[Jason Topp]

Besides being a very interesting hole from tee to green, the green itself is probably one of my favorite greens in golf. 

I have never seen the hole so I do not have any opinions on the subject but I am intersted in how the hole is interesting from tee to green?  It looks like you just try to hit it in the middle of the fairway and either succeed or fail.

[Rick Sides]

Jason,
The hole is a medium length hole so you can use anything from a 3 iron to driver depending how greedy you want to get. If you miss the fairway, your are in some pretty deep bunkers for a fairway and you can forget about going for the green in those bunkers.  Then there is your  approach shot.  You may have 85 yards to the green, but like Tom P said, 85 yards could be more like 125 yards because of the elevation and wind.  You also have to factor that your approach better be pretty "spot on" because that green is very large and is a 3 or 4 putt waiting to happen if you make a mistake. 
I think this is one of the most underrated holes on the course. 

[Sean Leary]

It is one of the few intimidating tee shots out there.

This pic does not do the hole justice.

[Phil McDade]

Those who have played this course (I have not) and know it well often describe it as having deceptively wide fairways -- and thus is more playable that perhaps at first glance (and wider than this photo might otherwise suggest).

Any ideas how wide this particular fairway is?

[Eric Smith]

Eric:

Believe it or not less than ten years ago those bunkers along the left side of the fairway were essentially enveloped in trees. They did a good job of clearing them out. I'd prefer to see them keep on clearing on the left maybe 20 yards deep right on up to the green the way that hole originally was.

I firmly believe those bunkers are Crump's version of mini-imitation "Church-pews" ala Oakmont. The timing and reason fits perfectly----eg not long before he did them he had been the medalist at the Pennsylvania State Amateur Championship at Oakmont and Oakmont's W.C. Fownes was a prominent and opinion-giving member of Pine Valley.

In 1921 C.H. Alison recommended removing all the divisions between those bunkers and turning both areas (left and right) into a big sand area planted with clumps of marram grass. His logic was that would not be so penal as all those divided bunkers but penal enough. Initially the 1921 Advisory Committee decided to go with Alison's suggestion but then fortunately changed their minds and put that suggestion into the "Suggested changes on which we are undecided."

Fortunately those mini imitation "Church-pews" remain to this day and now that they cleared the trees out that enveloped them on the left they are very visible from the tee.

Thanks for that Tom.  I'm curious if the bunkers, or ruts, down the left hand side were designed or maintained as formal bunkers like those down the right before the trees took them over?

I looked in my old World Atlas of Golf and those on the left appear in the graphic to be less formal, almost all sandy area. 

I scanned it in here:

[TEPaul]

Eric:

Apparently the reason the World of Golf Atlas drawing of that hole in 1981 did not put those bunkers in is because by that point they were enveloped by trees as I mentioned above. If you look at that drawing it would be pretty hard to draw in the trees with the bunkers below them too and have the bunkers show up in that drawing. But those bunkers on the left are original to the course and Crump.

[JESII]

Eric,

I don't know the answer for certain, but if you look at the Red/Blue Topo map on the DA thread there are several references to the bunkers looking rectilinear and almost like a stained glass form. I think it was the nature of cutting out the bunkers in these type of areas that the illustrator of that topo was trying to convey. Very few typical bunker shapes out there, with alot of them being little carve outs like on both sides of this hole.

Strangely, this green actually does provide a real advantage to being on a particular side of the fairway depending upon the hole location...also, I hit the green out of one of the right bunkers once...wouldn't bet on it again.

[JESII]

Oh, and by the way...to me this green is the Sistine Chapel of greens but I wish it were approached with a longer club...

[Sean Leary]

Oh, and by the way...to me this green is the Sistine Chapel of greens but I wish it were approached with a longer club...

What is the distance now from the newish back tee? What club do you usually hit off the tee?

[JESII]

The whole tee is maybe 20 - 25 yards deep and the back of it is against the property line. I think it's 375 give or take. I'll hit driver almost every time...the fairway gets a bit wider up at the end of the bunkers, my driver goes a little left to right (which fits better) and lastly, you really do want as short a shot as possible.

[Mike Cirba]

Perhaps the single happiest two-putt I've ever had, from the very front right edge of that green to a hole about 9 feet from the very back left corner...

Just trying to figure out  which of the internal contours to use to eventually guide the ball back to that corner was an exercise in AP physics!

Peter,

My single greatest two-putt ever was almost the opposite of yours.

I putted from about six inches from the back middle fringe to a hole location front right.  

That putt had more changes of direction than Foster Brooks.

[JSlonis]

Besides being a very interesting hole from tee to green, the green itself is probably one of my favorite greens in golf.  

I have never seen the hole so I do not have any opinions on the subject but I am intersted in how the hole is interesting from tee to green?  It looks like you just try to hit it in the middle of the fairway and either succeed or fail.

Jason,

For me the hole is very interesting from tee to green.  Although there aren't really options from a width standpoint, Crump presents you with other choices.  First, you have to hit it in the fairway.  The challenge becomes...WITH WHAT?  A longer hitter can hit it past the bunkers with a driver or sometimes a 3 wood.  That is a decent risk to take because it will leave you with a short approach.  The problem is if you hit it offline.  The second choice is to gear down and hit a long iron/hybrid to keep it in play.  The problem there is if you hit that club offline you are more than likely blasting a sand shot back out into the fairway.  I would guess the fairway is at least 30 yards wide between the bunkers and even wider past the bunkers.  Although once you miss that fairway a couple of times, it magically shrinks the next time you get on the tee.

Like Jim, I almost always hit driver/3 wood to fly it past the bunkers.