What about this hole?

[Carr Harris]

OK guys fair enough...

Thank you to those of you that took the time to answer me.

[Matthew Runde]

You know, perhaps like Tom Paul said earlier today, Crump may very well have been inspired by Fownes' church pews at Oakmont and implemented that type of mentally terrorizing hazard into the psyche of the golfer at Pine Valley at the second hole.

*snip*

I imagine playing holes three and four at Oakmont, hell probably as soon as you get the invite to play there, you, the golfer are thinking about those church pews, much the same as you think about the tee shot at 17 Sawgrass well before you get to that hole.

That these type of features are out there makes gca interesting, controversial yes, but interesting all the same.

Eric, I agree.  I haven't been there, but I think that even if it were severely cramped and penal, it would make the course interesting.  It reminds me of what Tom Doak wrote about in The Anatomy of a Golf Course, where the mix of penal, strategic, and heroic holes makes a course interesting and exciting.  I think, too, that if the giant mound had been kept on the 18th green, it could have served the same purpose.

Joe Bausch, thanks for making me hungry.

[Bill_McBride]

Wow. How many people actually swallowed the hook on this one?

That is the absolute worst angle from which to picture that hole, too.

Have to confess I certainly did, based purely on that aerial view in post #1.  From that angle it looks like one of those Rees Jones layouts with bunkers down both sides like eyelets on a shoe.   

I haven't been to Pine Valley and I'm sure it's wonderful, but that first photo put me off.

But of course I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[TEPaul]

I'd just like to reiterate one thing that was touched on in this thread in response to some of the contributors on the subject of "strategy."

Apparently some think strategy in golf and architecture has to involve some choice about directions a player can take. That is certainly part of strategy, and probably the major part of it but the other equally important aspect is simply club-selection related to distance only and in the same direction, particularly off tee shots. Pine Valley has a ton of that and the longer the driver the more he has to think about it at PV. I figured that out at PV playing guys like Sigel who was really long. On most all the par 4s he'd have to really think about what club to hit distance-wise where I was so much shorter than him I could pretty much hit driver everywhere without running straight through into something unappealing.

[Kyle Harris]

Strategy as the be-all-end-all in the merits of the golf hole is vastly overrated, IMO.

2/3 of Amen Corner are execution and shot-urgency based. It's that decision on 13 that makes the prior two holes so wrangling, though.

Not every hole should have 20 different ways to attack the hazards presented by the architect - sometimes you just have to execute.

"The designer knows he has achieved perfection, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

[Sean Leary]

I've never seen a more interesting green.  So neat it deserves to be shown (this pic standing near the 3rd tee) at 1600 pixels wide!

Nice pic Joe, but it really doesn't do this green justice, does it?...

[Sean Leary]

Joe,

Thank you for the suggestion but I fear that won't really answer my question.

 I think that I wasn't clear enough on my initial query, I was questioning the bunkering in specific rather then the entire hole. Even I'm not dumb enough to make a judgement on the green or approach based off of one birdseye photo . The fact remains that a bulk of the fairway bunkering doesn't look to be an issue for almost anyone. It may be nitpicking but I am just interested to hear why it isn't an issue there where I know it would be @ a lesser regarded course.

Honestly, Carr its a fair question. The answer is simple. Double Standard.  

[Mike Salinetti]

Eric, I was fortunate to be on the staff when those bunkers on the left were reestablished. We dug and hacked through a lot of tree roots to get the bunkers like that. Some more on the right side were added as well. The hole is not all that difficult. I like 3 wood right up the middle, will leave you a sand wedge into the green. Pin positions can be bitch though. Rick has done a great job with this hole from the pic you posted.

[TEPaul]

"Eric, I was fortunate to be on the staff when those bunkers on the left were reestablished. We dug and hacked through a lot of tree roots to get the bunkers like that."


MikeS:

I can imagine. I remember the spring I went over there and that hole just felt so much more open. I got the same feeling with all the clearly that was done on #3 too around the same time. Even what they did on the right of #14 felt real different from the tee. It has always been my hope that they will continue doing that on most of the holes. I think the prescription is pretty simple----just get the trees out of and away from those old original bunkers on that golf course.

[Joe Bausch]

Sean, you are right that my photos can't really do that green justice.

Here are few others of this hole for those playing along at home.

[Mac Plumart]

OMG...

simply looking at those pictures scares the crap out of me!!!  Is that first one a view from the tee box?

[Mike Sweeney]

Joe,

Thank you for the suggestion but I fear that won't really answer my question.

 I think that I wasn't clear enough on my initial query, I was questioning the bunkering in specific rather then the entire hole. Even I'm not dumb enough to make a judgement on the green or approach based off of one birdseye photo . The fact remains that a bulk of the fairway bunkering doesn't look to be an issue for almost anyone. It may be nitpicking but I am just interested to hear why it isn't an issue there where I know it would be @ a lesser regarded course.

Honestly, Carr its a fair question. The answer is simple. Double Standard.  

Yes and no, and goodness knows I love to point out GCA's double standards.

For me the greatness of Pine Valley is its variety. Left, right, up, down, rolling, flat, trees, sand, water ...... Here you have a relatively flat fairway for Pine Valley so Crump basically said you better take advantage of being on the fairway here. It has been mentioned a bunch of times that the course is pretty wide on many holes off the tee. This is not one of them. Carr has a valid point, but it must be taken in context of one hole in the variety of 18 unique holes and shots and looks that Pine Valley presents. There have to be examples of courses where such a hodgepodge of holes does not work, but PV is not on that list. Each unique hole flows from one to another.

[TEPaul]

"OMG...
simply looking at those pictures scares the crap out of me!!!  Is that first one a view from the tee box?"


Mac:

OK good. I'm glad you said that. You do want a really good architectural education I know because you mention it on here and so now tell us exactly what it is that scares the crap out of you looking up that hole from the tee?

That hole generally scares a lot of golfers but there is generally a particular reason or similar reason. A lot of the holes at PV do but perhaps this one as much or more than any of the others for this particular reason.

I'll even give you a hint. This is the hole more than perhaps any other out there except maybe the 5th that creates in so many golfers what over the years has been referred to as "the old Pine Valley hang-on."

[Eric Smith]

Those pics Joe put up are a game changer for me, looks to be plenty of room to sling the old two wood out there from right to left.

Jim,

I think I can see what you mean about wishing you were required to hit a longer iron into the green here.  That second shot looks mean already, I mean Joe Green mean.  But imagine having to swing a 4, 5 or 6 iron up to that position?  Awesome.

[Mac Plumart]

Okay...what scares me about the hole.  FYI...I don't know the distance of the hole.  I am guessing 380ish par 4.

I'll walk you through my most likely thought process standing at the tee box.

First off, I'll stoop down to tee my ball up.  Looking at the narrow fairway, I'll probably pick the try to hit the drive right down the center.  I am thinking that depending on where the pin is placed, I could be in real trouble should I be in the wrong side of the fairway.  For instance, if the pin is on the right side of the green and I fade one...I can't get there in two.  Slice one and I am f**ked.  But middle or left of the fairway and I got a shot.

So, as I stand up from teeing my ball up I notice that nasty bunker in front of the tee box.  Visual intimidation..reminds me of a Strantz quote.  Anyway...I most likely won't be in that trap...but I'm thinking about it.

I don't know if the bunker right and left need to much explanation...if I am in them I've got no shot at hitting the green especially protected by that trap.  More visual intimidation, but this time with a real threat.

Ok...lets say I put the ball in the middle of the fairway.  Now I've got an approach over that nasty greenside bunker.  More visual intimidation.  Knowing that green is crazy, I am even more frightened.  Fat the shot and the bunker(s) look like trouble.  Hit the green in the wrong spot adn I slide off the green.

If I hit the green, the putts don't look like gimmie's either.

The one thing I can't tell about the green complex is what is it like over the back of the green.  I am assuming it is big trouble.  But if it is not...my "out" on the appraoch would be to play to the hole or longer and get the bunker(s) out of play.

Anyway, from the pictures that is what  I see.

[TEPaul]

"Okay...what scares me about the hole.  FYI...I don't know the distance of the hole.  I am guessing 380ish par 4."

It's not even that. From the tips it's 368 but it plays as one of the longest holes of that length you'll ever see and mostly because of that approach shot but what most don't even know or appreciate is how much that hole gradually rises from the tee to the LZ. It's so gradual it's hard to appreciate.

[TEPaul]

"I am thinking that depending on where the pin is placed, I could be in real trouble should I be in the wrong side of the fairway."


Mac:

Actually it makes very little difference what side of that fairway you're on for that approach shot no matter where the pin is even though I must admit whenever I was on the left side or even in the middle I just felt I'd prefer to hit a bit of a draw but you most certainly don't have to do that. Club selection is so important on that approach because it is effectively one of the longest shots to actual distance I've ever seen. I also liked to hit the lesser club and hit it harder with a draw just because a draw went farther. So no matter where I was on that fairway I always felt like hitting a draw which may've been a mistake because I ended up pulling it some more often than not. The other thing that's on your mind is to get some good height on the approach whatever club or shot shape you were thinking about.

And here's an interesting tidbit on that hole----the only golfers I ever really saw go long on that hole were the really good ones I played against. In playing that hole probably hundreds of times over the years I do not recall seeing a single higher handicapper going long on that second shot. Some would with a third shot but I never saw one do it with the second.

By the way, the reason I mentioned that hint about the "old Pine Valley hang-on" is because I've seen more players of all levels just try to steer their tee shot out there on that hole than most any other in memory. Of course the 5th is even worse that way. I've always felt that a hole that seems both tight AND uphill really tends to make a lot of golfers try to steer the ball.

[Mark Molyneux]

Any good stories about playing out of those ruts along either side of the fairway?  They Look menacing to me.

As with several other holes at PVGC, it's rarely as cramped as it appears from the tee. I'm pretty sure that there may be some "good" stories about playing from the ruts and bunkers along the sides but I bet there are no "happy" stories. When I played the hole, I had just finished talking to my host about course management as we walked from the first green. He hit 1 iron off #1 and he hit 1 iron again here at two. It hit me that placement was going to be a whole lot more important that length. I learned a lesson and hit driver four times that day (including at #1 where I didn't need it at all. My host hit exactly two.

The best stories about #2 usuall happen up top on the putting surface. That green is as devious as any I've encountered. It shakes... it shimmies (with apologies to Jessica Rabbit and a thousand burlesque dancers who came before her.

[TEPaul]

Guys, I'd like you all to go back and seriously consider the first two photos Joe Bausch hung up there on his last post.

Now visualize this;

That hole from the tee and the approach with about 20 yards deep of trees at least cleared out on the left all the way from over the road right on up to next to the green. That's the way it once was.

Now, for the real denoument consider what that hole would look like and feel like from both the tee and the approach with all those trees removed from behind that green! That is what that hole originally looked like and frankly those trees behind that green are not important or necessary to anything or anybody on any shot with the possible exception of a totally hooked an really long drive off of #4.

Can you visualize all that? Would that not be one of the most awe-inspiring and TOTALLY SKYline greens in the entire world?  

I firmly believe if PV got into that kind of original visual/aesthetic restoration on this hole and some others it would be a lock at #1 world-wide for arguably the rest of the lifetimes of everyone on this website!

[Joe Bausch]

Now, for the real denoument consider what that hole would look like and feel like from both the tee and the approach with all those trees removed from behind that green! That is what that hole originally looked like and frankly those trees behind that green are not important or necessary to anything or anybody on any shot with the possible exception of a totally hooked an really long drive off of #4.

Can you visualize all that? Would that not be one of the most awe-inspiring and TOTALLY SKYline greens in the entire world?  

I firmly believe if PV got into that kind of original visual/aesthetic restoration on this hole and some others it would be a lock at #1 world-wide for arguably the rest of the lifetimes of everyone on this website!

Tommy:  I'd like to disagree with you, but I think all the facts are on your side.   

[TEPaul]

As for some war-stories of golfers in those bunkers on the left and right, particularly the left they are numerous and totally legend down there and the stories don't really discriminate between bad golfers and really good ones.

That is why the Valley provides more of an edge in good tournaments for the golfers who have a lot of experience there either as members or others than I think any other golf course I'm aware of.

Matter of fact, due to that massive "experience factor" down there the last time they held the Philadelphia OPEN there I picked an amateur to win it and he came so close and would have won it had he not just missed a few important shots in the last few holes of the 36 hole event.

When it comes to getting out of trouble down there like out of those left fairway bunkers the philosophy is just get the ball out and back on that fairway anyway you can even if it's something like backwards. Believe me in the long run it always works out best down there that way.

[TEPaul]

"Tommy:  I'd like to disagree with you, but I think all the facts are on your side.       "


Giueseppe Bauschillini:

You'd like to disagree with me too? Well, join the club! But on PV my facts are pretty good, even if some stump-brains like Mucci can't admit that on here because I'm looking right at a ton of original material including the chronicaling of some significant contemporaneous recollections and opinions of guys who were close to Crumpola.

I just laugh at these people on here who talk about Pine Valley not being ideal because it doesn't accommodate the games of all levels of golfers and it doesn't have bump in approaches on about 40% of its greens, it has some forced carries that were effectively significant back then, it has pretty much original width fairways that are big and/and because it has virtually no traditional rough on the course and never has had and such like.

It was never supposed to. Crump didn't want it that way and for his own unique reasons but nevertheless, look what happened---even in his short life there and even before the course was completed that thing was already just about at the top of the world with everyone who ever saw it who had a modicum of understanding about golf and architecture.

My God, life is so complex sometimes because for no apparent, known or expected reason, one night he was suddenly gone.

But when I really consider the few idiots on here who can't understand or figure out that the likes of the Crumps and Wilsons and Leeds and Fownes et al although novices when they began these masterpieces did the things they did right straight out of their own imaginations without the help from some others that some on here seem to think they weren't capable of doing those things without.
 

[archie_struthers]

 


#2 at Pine Valley isn't at all like the overhead pictures make it appear....it almost looks like Cassique in the aerial photo


The tee shot is gradually uphill, almost imperceptibly so from the tee but pretty obvious when you are out front looking back , the bunkers that appear almost garish in the overhead are almost hidden on the left side , with the right grouping a little more obvious . Not a lot of eye candy from the tee as the traps are scooped out rather than flashed up  , as TEP makes clear they are a real impediment to scoring if in them.  The best strategy is flip it out , if able , and play for a hardworking bogey five from there

However , as Jim Sullivan related , there is the occasional  heroic shot from the right bunkers to the green. If you get a lucky bounce into the back end of one of the traps on the right after a pushed tee shot, once in a blue moon you might be able to hit a big hard slice onto the green. It is pretty much a snap slice though and requires some talent !

Now the left side is much different as the traps are quite small and you really can't get a stance in many of them. It's often hard to move it sideways and often a backwards chip out is the only option. I really only remember one time in all my years there that someone actually had a reasonable shot at the green from a left bunker, it was a real fluke to say the least.  

In tournament qualifying at Pine Valley , the first five holes usually seal your doom or set you up for a good effort.  Two or three over after five isn't the end if you truly understand the golf course, as the "hang on " syndrome is most apparent early and late in the round at the "Valley"

[Pat Howard]

Could somebody explain to me what is so severe about the green?

Pup

Pup, think of a hybrid shape from a combining a Pringles and Sun chip!  

I think that's the best description of a challenging, well contoured green I've ever heard!

[TEPaul]

Even though I've probably played PV a hundred or two times over the last three or so decades and just about all in tourneys, and I feel very confident about my material and understanding of the entire architectural history of Pine Valley at this point, my knowledge of the nuances and ramifications and subtlties of that golf course on the ground pales in comparison to Archie Struthers familiarity with it. Can any of you even imagine within a factor of ten how many times he has been out there all over that place?  I bet even he has no idea. And Archie can play too, I think, or at least he could. We are lucky to have him on here. Now if I see Mucci sassing Struthers about his knowledge of the details of that place on-the-ground I swear I'm getting in the car and going up to North Jersey and delivering the ultimate omerta to that Patrick "Wise-acre" Mucci.