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George Pazin

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Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2010, 10:16:34 AM »
As there is already an abundance of amazing championship tests that exhibit variety - from TOC to Mruifield to Sandwich to Shinney to Oakmont to Pebble and back -  why would anyone feel the need to formalize the variety within?

This reminds of the old canard "hitting every club in the bag". I personally would rather hit 3 consecutive 7 irons that emphasize different shot shapes, trajectories, etc, than hit a 5 iron, 6 iron and 7 iron - or even 3 wood, 5 iron and wedge, for that matter.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Nugent

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Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2010, 10:22:09 AM »
As there is already an abundance of amazing championship tests that exhibit variety - from TOC to Mruifield to Sandwich to Shinney to Oakmont to Pebble and back -  why would anyone feel the need to formalize the variety within?


"...formalize the variety within."?  I don't follow.  Please explain.
Coasting is a downhill process

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2010, 10:40:49 AM »
Tim,

Actually my par 3 featured a forced water carry with no way around, when it could have been achieved and that is what Dick was referring to......Yeah, I have tried it, out of necessity.

But there are so many related topics, like whether or not leaving an open front green is good design or formula? I guess it depends on whether you have just made the carry or not.....I was reading the Toronto Terror last night and it has a chapter on Stanley Thompson design thoughts.  The elimination of cross bunkers was a very good thing in his mind and yet, despite most golfers still hitting ground balls and shooting 90, so many here would say incorporating those would be a good thing......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2010, 10:43:06 AM »
George,

You and a few others have opined that for some reason I am trying to make courses tough.  Although I do happen to have the highest USGA rated courses in two states, that is far from the case.

After all, I did ask YOUR ideal test, not an ideal test for a Tour Pro when the goal is to make sure that Par is a good score.....What kind of features do YOU like to play and see in a golf course?

Why is it that nearly every discussion of gca goes to Tour Pros rather than average players?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2010, 11:07:57 AM »
Much like my social life, I appreciate diversity on a golf course.  This means that I like long holes that are demanding as long as there's some leavening along the way.  I like a sporty or outright short par-4 that encourages some risk taking.  I love a short par 3 with a demanding green and don't mind a long par 3, over 210 for example, as long as the green isn't murderously hard.  I don't mind a water hole now and again, but I'm with Bob Huntley, a steady diet of water is simply no fun, unless you're in Florida, where it's unavoidable.  And I also appreciate a little diversity on the golf course: young and old, male and female, carts and caddies. 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

RJ_Daley

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Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2010, 12:46:30 PM »
My ideal course is more oriented towards wanting to see variety in the terrain and directions of the routing rather than X number of long to short ratio, par 3s, 4s, 5s.  Yes, I like there to be variety in distances that various holes cover.  I don't like to see several holes all in the 330-380 range, or all par 3s within two or three club range.

What my ideal course requires is variety of elevation changes when attempting shots both off the tee and to greens or LZs, from low to higher and vice versa.  And, it is even more fun if the shot gives you some decision as to how to play the LZ, off a slope or two distinct sides of a FW for a choice on the next shot as to how to play it into a green site.  I like greens to be sited at various elevations as well, higher or lower than your approach.  Then, I also have an ideal where the routing takes multiple directions for dealing with winds. 

So, to me ideal golf courses are more about how the routing makes its journey across the land.  Use of that land in terms of using elevations and directions pretty much takes care of the distance variety and width formulas, because almost any routing over interesting land will default to a variety of non-template or non-formula hole designs, IMHO.

Now, when you are dealing with unremarkable flat land, then it becomes more formulaic, and template hole designs seem to me to be more of a possibility.  That is why I think Raynor is so successful.  Many of his holes can be duplicated on unremarkable terrain, with lots of dozer work.  The templates have a predetermined "best golfing shot" routine to them, that are tried and true classic shots.  But, even Raynor templates seem more fun on varied terain and elevation sites.

I also go with Ben's notion of rejecting the term "test" of golf.  A round of golf is a game of golf, and tests seem to kill the fun of a round in a social setting, where I play 90% of my golf.  Tests are when we play in tournaments and competitively for score.  Tests bring in pencil and card mentality, and take away from the pleasure aspect for me.  Even a classic match is more gamesmanship, not so much a test, except a test of managing your game against your opponent, with the course as secondary and only the venue where the game takes place.  In a match, played on the "test of golf" type of course, it seems to come down to both players must hit "the" shot called for at the time, more so than strategising alternate ways to play several choices to match or beat your opponent on a given hole, if it were a template sort of "test of golf" hole.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2010, 01:06:48 PM »
"...formalize the variety within."?  I don't follow.  Please explain.

Formalized plan:

X reachable par 5s
Y driveable par 4s
Z ball buster par 4s
par 3s that box the compass
etc

Jeff -

I don't believe in setting up a course to test me any more than I believe in setting up a course to test the pros, so toughness doesn't have anything to do with it. My ideal test definition would be so vague as to be pointless.

Or maybe it would simply be a course that requires creative thought other than "What's my yardage?" and "Where's should I drop?"

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2010, 02:11:50 PM »
Along with the 3s that I mentioned early on I also prefer deep greenside bunkers/shallower fairway bunkers, terrain that is hilly w/humps and bumps and tilts of various size and utility, and medium to speedy greens that contain small breaks melded into broader rolls.

Really though, my 'Ideal' golf course is not limited to one 'type', but is more about finding reasonably interesting architecture in out of the way places where the game remains enjoyable and personal.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2010, 03:46:55 PM »
The word "test" just puts me off.  Is golf a game, or a sport?  It is very hard for me to understand why one would want to face the stiffest or ideal test in their hobby.  It is akin to the weekend warrior on the 40 and under baseball team wanting to face CC Sabathia every time he takes an at bat in his local league.

I've played a couple US Open layouts now.  And a few other places that the TOUR has been to.  Those courses ask you to execute one shot in my opinion.  Whereas the courses we consider fun have led me to all sorts of different solutions to a given shot.

I think you could make the case that the fun courses are "ideal test" when the golfer is faced with myriad options that require deft execution, than the so-called "ideal" tests of golf that we see at US Open courses.  

Ben

I haven't a clue what most of your references are about but with regards to your statement on why one would want to face a test, I've got to wonder if you think golf is a game or a walk in the park. All games/sports offer tests and challenges, thats what there about, otherwise whats the point ?

Niall

Garland Bayley

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Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2010, 04:17:10 PM »
...I strive to come up with a routing that maximizes what the land has to offer while trying to put the golfer in as many different playing situations as possible. ...

I really like this, unless of course it involves ponds. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Your Ideal Test of Golf....
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2010, 04:18:54 PM »
...I strive to come up with a routing that maximizes what the land has to offer while trying to put the golfer in as many different playing situations as possible. ...

I really like this, unless of course it involves ponds. ;)


Tim,

In this day and age, most of my routings are theoretical anyway, perhaps leading to the theoretical question about the ideal course.......(frown)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach