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Brian Laurent

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Ross/Mackenzie
« on: March 10, 2010, 09:01:14 PM »
Was there any friction between Ross and Mackenzie during their glory days?  In reading Ross's Golf Has Never Failed Me  there was a caption stating something along the lines of Ross's bunkers were superior because of placement and did not feature unnatural fingers, etc in building them (excuse my lack of identifying the exact caption, traveling and don't have the book on hand!). 

They must have crossed paths often...were they bitter rivals, did they share ideas, what was their relationship like?
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john_stiles

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 10:14:15 PM »

Have not seen a quote by either man that might relate to their relationship or any friction, but it is often related that Ross was disappointed by not getting the nod for design of ANGC.

Am traveling as well and cannot get to my books for some reference to Ross' disappointment re: ANGC.

Most of Mackenzie's work in US was on west coast where Ross didn't work,  except for the Peninsula Golf and Country Club in San Mateo.   I think that was Ross' sole visit to California for golf course design, and he only took the job after he asked the club for a design fee that was twice his normal, and the club said 'yes.'

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Neil_Crafter

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 10:20:58 PM »
I have not read anything from either man that was derogatory to the other. Mackenzie added a new 9 holes to the St Charles CC in Canada (Winnipeg from memory) and the earlier 9 was by Ross. These two nines weren't contemporary though.
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Niall Hay

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 10:28:33 PM »
Quote from: Brian Laurent on March 10, 2010, 09:01:14 PM
Was there any friction between Ross and Mackenzie during their glory days?  In reading Ross's Golf Has Never Failed Me  there was a caption stating something along the lines of Ross's bunkers were superior because of placement and did not feature unnatural fingers, etc in building them (excuse my lack of identifying the exact caption, traveling and don't have the book on hand!). 

They must have crossed paths often...were they bitter rivals, did they share ideas, what was their relationship like?

They were contemporaries and competitors so probably competing (even if not directly) for some of the same projects... so maybe a slight rivalry?
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2010, 02:05:06 AM »
Here's a pic of Mackenzie and Ross together at a seniors tournament at the Claremont CC in California from June 4 1933.
They could stand each other enough to have a drink together at least! I suspect they were collegial with each other. We know Mackenzie sent Tom Simpson letters from South America in 1930 so he was on friendly terms with some golf architects.

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Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 06:46:31 AM »
Neil
That is an amazing photo. I never knew those two met. I can't imagine Ross traveled to California just to play in a senior event (although I could be wrong), which begs the question what was he doing out there?
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 07:22:33 AM »
Yes it is rather nice. The photo comes from Claremont but was reproduced in the St Charles CC history book and this is a fairly poor scan of what may be a photocopy from the book. Well he was there, must have been some reason other than just a seniors tournament you would think as Cal was not exactly Ross' stamping ground.
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 07:50:27 AM »
Tom and Neil,

I'm pretty certain Ross was in California at the time working on his design at Peninsula in San Mateo.

There's another great photo of Ross and Mackenize on-site at Claremont during the course construction, there. A friend of mine who worked on the Claremont restoration project has a copy of this photo... unfortunately I don't.
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David Stamm

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 10:45:56 AM »
Great pic, Neil! Sad to think that AM was dead 7 months after this picture was taken.
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Chuck Brown

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 12:17:47 PM »
Yeah, that's one hell of a picture; I don't think I've seen that one previously.  Are both of those guys featuring clubs with steel shafts in that picture?  It would not be terribly surprising, in 1933; but it shows that neither one had any hesitation about playing with the best equipment available, even the newest-latest-greatest.
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 01:50:21 PM »
I've seen this photo of Mackenzie elsewhere, too. Funny though, each time Mr. Ross had been cropped out!
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Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 10:39:39 PM »
I believe Ross  designed (or redesigned) Beresford in 1922. Did he return in the 1930s?
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Sean_A

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 04:06:06 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Mingay on March 11, 2010, 01:50:21 PM
I've seen this photo of Mackenzie elsewhere, too. Funny though, each time Mr. Ross had been cropped out!

Jeff

Yes!  I too have seen the same thing.

Ciao
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 06:11:33 AM »
Jeff
Very interested to hear about the pic of AM and DR on site at Claremont. Would love to get a copy of it if you can wangle one from your friend.

Cropping out DR from that photo is also like the cropping out of Max Behr from another photo with Mac at TOC

David
yes, very sad to think that, only 7 short months.
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Mark Pritchett

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 08:34:01 AM »
Many people speculate that Ross would have been the obvious choice to design ANGC, but the club wanted to use someone different due to Ross already having two courses in Augusta, Forest Hills and ACC.

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Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross/Mackenzie
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 01:38:59 PM »
ANGC was for open for play when this photo was taken, and there doesn't appear to be any hard feelings between the two.
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