Does a mediocre seaside course beat a great inland one every time?

[Adam Clayman]

 Every molecule of our being is primordially drawn to water. I think there's a euphoria felt after rounds played near large bodies of water which is similar to the feeling one has after playing on an inland great course.  Heck, Mike Keiser is building an empire on the fact that seaside courses have a draw. He just happens to be using the right architects to do it profitably. Can you imagine a coastline of over manufactured hand of man crap?? Oh wait.... Florida. j/k 

[Greg Chambers]

  I agree. Give me something......the water always does. Memorable.

  Anthony

From an architectural standpoint, a seaside course will always have what an inland course does not have: WIND.  Th most fascinating thing about seaside golf is that holes change wildly from day to day.  15 at the Ocean Course will be the easiest hole on the course one day and the hardest the next.  17 at Sandwich, oft considered a beast of a par four, was very straightforward the day I played it.  Why? the wind was dead behind me, and it was a respite after brutes at 11, 13, and 15.  A seaside course will always have a variety that an inland course does not.  From that standpoint, seaside courses are always preferable.

Absolutely false.  My course is in the mountains in CO, not seaside, and the wind blows every day.  Sometimes from the west, sometimes from the south, even from the east on some occasions.  The wind changes the way the course plays constantly.  Sometimes in the same day.  So to say that a seaside course is preferable to an inland course based on the variation that wind plays a role on seaside courses and not inland courses is totally off the mark.

[Matthew Petersen]

  I agree. Give me something......the water always does. Memorable.

  Anthony

From an architectural standpoint, a seaside course will always have what an inland course does not have: WIND.  Th most fascinating thing about seaside golf is that holes change wildly from day to day.  15 at the Ocean Course will be the easiest hole on the course one day and the hardest the next.  17 at Sandwich, oft considered a beast of a par four, was very straightforward the day I played it.  Why? the wind was dead behind me, and it was a respite after brutes at 11, 13, and 15.  A seaside course will always have a variety that an inland course does not.  From that standpoint, seaside courses are always preferable.

Absolutely false.  My course is in the mountains in CO, not seaside, and the wind blows every day.  Sometimes from the west, sometimes from the south, even from the east on some occasions.  The wind changes the way the course plays constantly.  Sometimes in the same day.  So to say that a seaside course is preferable to an inland course based on the variation that wind plays a role on seaside courses and not inland courses is totally off the mark.

I will second that this is a false notion. I have played 10+ rounds in Hawaii, and have only had stuff winds once. Every other time was a gentle breeze.

But I have never once played a round in the Palm Springs area when it wasn't gusty, if not downright hard to stand up straight in the wind. Think of all the inland places (California deserts, eastern plains of Colorado, etc) where we have wind farms to generate electricity. There's a reason ....

[Craig Sweet]

A great course is a great course, regardless of where it is located...a mediocre course can get a measure of redemption if it has a good grill room, some nice views, a good range, or is in decent condition.

[Dave McCollum]

Ok, let me insert an abrasive comment or three (I hate that).  Good golf is good golf, subject to your subjective definition and that depends on the day.  Wind is wind.  My experience is inland wind gusts, swirls, eddies, moves around land forms, changes direction, etc.  Costal wind is more constant, steady, uninterrupted, until it changes.  No way to know.  It’s wind and unknowable in the moment.  The golf is the same, unknowable.  Is the TOC a seaside links? Of course.  Can you see the ocean on any hole but the 1st and 18th (not sure, forget the Eden Estuary—that’s a transition zone)?  No.  Are you playing a seaside links?  Yes.  My conclusion:  did you have fun?  Was it a great experience?  Did you have to think and exclude every other mundane dalliance from your brain for a few hours?  Be there play golf, enjoy.  It depends.  Absurd premise.

[JESII]

Dave,

It's not an absurd premise, to me. It's just two premises jammed into one...or something like that.

Mediocre architecture comes of great in windy conditions on typically firm fast seaside turf...while...

Good to great architecture inland NEEDS good ground conditions to be really great...because at the end of the day, we're playing golf, no tlooking at pictures.

[Dave McCollum]

Ok, let me insert an abrasive comment or three (I hate that).  Good golf is good golf, subject to your definition and that depends on the day.  Wind is wind.  My experience is inland wind gusts, swirls, eddies, moves around land forms, changes direction, etc.  Costal wind is more constant, steady, uninterrupted, until it changes.  No way to know.  It’s wind and unknowable in the moment.  The golf is the same, unknowable.  Is the TOC a seaside links? Of course.  Can you see the ocean on any hole but the 1st and 18th (not sure, forget the Eden Estuary—that’s a transition zone)?  No.  Are you playing a seaside links?  Yes.  My conclusion:  did you have fun?  Was it a great experience?  Did you have to think and exclude every other mundane dalliance from your brain for a few hours?  Be there, play golf, enjoy.  It depends.  Absurd premise.  Good golf is where you find it.

[jeffwarne]

That's the gist of a one-liner penned by George Peper in the Winter 2010 issue of Links magazine in which he channels the spirit of the late sportswriter Jimmy Cannon.

I've not played a lot of seaside courses, the Ocean Course at Kiawah being the notable exception, but I know many of you have. So what do you think? Does a great inland course always come up short compared to a mediocre seaside course? Examples, please.

How could a mediocre course ever be better than a great course?

I think the titling of this thread could be different as who wants to say a "great" inland course (I'm thinking Pine Valley, Sunningdale Old, Merion) comes up short compared to a mediocre seaside course? (Bundoran, Half Moon Bay) and worse yet, not all seaside courses are links and the turf/ground conditions could in fact be inferior to a good and certainly a great  inland course.

There are certainly a few well traveled posters who opinions I value who think I'm a bit daft for recommending courses such as Nefyn, but I would never say great courses such as the inland ones I listed "come up short" against Nefyn.
I do think Nefyn provides a very memorable day/experience however; and is not to be skipped if withing an hour drive of it.

I will state that I'm a sucker for a seaside course(particularly a links) and no doubt rate them higher than i would if they were bordered by a shopping mall. .

[Sean_A]

That's the gist of a one-liner penned by George Peper in the Winter 2010 issue of Links magazine in which he channels the spirit of the late sportswriter Jimmy Cannon.

I've not played a lot of seaside courses, the Ocean Course at Kiawah being the notable exception, but I know many of you have. So what do you think? Does a great inland course always come up short compared to a mediocre seaside course? Examples, please.

How could a mediocre course ever be better than a great course?

I think the titling of this thread could be different as who wants to say a "great" inland course (I'm thinking Pine Valley, Sunningdale Old, Merion) comes up short compared to a mediocre seaside course? (Bundoran, Half Moon Bay) and worse yet, not all seaside courses are links and the turf/ground conditions could in fact be inferior to a good and certainly a great  inland course.

There are certainly a few well traveled posters who opinions I value who think I'm a bit daft for recommending courses such as Nefyn, but I would never say great courses such as the inland ones I listed "come up short" against Nefyn.
I do think Nefyn provides a very memorable day/experience however; and is not to be skipped if withing an hour drive of it.

I will state that I'm a sucker for a seaside course(particularly a links) and no doubt rate them higher than i would if they were bordered by a shopping mall. .

Jeff

I don't know if my opinions command your respect.  Nor do I think you are daft for recommending Nefyn.  I wouldn't personally recommend Nefyn to most on this site who ask unless they are stuck quite near the course for some reason, but I probably would to many, many other golfers if they plan to play at Harlech or perhaps Aberdovey.  The views alone justify the recommendation for the "normal" (meaning not a wing nut) golfer, but most on this site are abbie something or other (abbie normal? - Thats it!) where golf is concerned.

Ciao      

[jeffwarne]

Sean,

I would say I would ecommend Nefyn to many of this site.
I would tell them why however.
Also, remember they may not be traveling with GCA geeks 

Why?
Incredible land form and piece of property.
Incredible scenery.
Fun golf and not real difficult.
Quite a few interesting/unique holes.
The downhill par three off the tower/mat was a lot more memorable than seeing another version of a Redan hole.
I thnk the pub on the beach on the back nine is a really cool feature for an afternoon round on a holiday. (the pictures we too there were one of the highlights of the trip-along with the sixsome we played in from there in the company of the Captain from nearby Porthmadog)

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I would say I would ecommend Nefyn to many of this site.
I would tell them why however.
Also, remember they may not be traveling with GCA geeks 

Why?
Incredible land form and piece of property.
Incredible scenery.
Fun golf and not real difficult.
Quite a few interesting/unique holes.
The downhill par three off the tower/mat was a lot more memorable than seeing another version of a Redan hole.
I thnk the pub on the beach on the back nine is a really cool feature for an afternoon round on a holiday. (the pictures we too there were one of the highlights of the trip-along with the sixsome we played in from there in the company of the Captain from nearby Porthmadog)

Jeff

I admire you for being more easily pleased than myself especially since you crossed an ocean and I would be more excited about the lovely drive through Wales rather than the golf.  Honestly, Nefyn could do with a complete overhaul. There is no reason (other than money - but I think a good design would repay the owners handsomely) why that site should produce a mediocre course or be thought of for primarily for its views. 

Ciao 

[Gary Slatter]

A mediocre seaside course is better than a mediocre inland course every time.   A great inland course is better than a mediocre seaside course every time.   
It's like asking "Is a mediocre British movie better than a great American movie?"    No.
Mediocre never is better than great, except in advertising.

Crail is interesting, their new course is more inland and probably the better course.  Doesn't get as much play as their historic seaside layout.  So maybe your premise is correct. "a mediocre seaside course can beat a great inland course" but not every time.

[Jud_T]

A mediocre seaside course is better than a mediocre inland course every time.   A great inland course is better than a mediocre seaside course every time.  
It's like asking "Is a mediocre British movie better than a great American movie?"    No.
Mediocre never is better than great, except in advertising.

Crail is interesting, their new course is more inland and probably the better course.  Doesn't get as much play as their historic seaside layout.  So maybe your premise is correct. "a mediocre seaside course can beat a great inland course" but not every time.

I'd pretty much take a Doak 6 Links course over a Doak 7 inland American course every time....and not because of the scenery....

[jeffwarne]

Sean,

I would say I would ecommend Nefyn to many of this site.
I would tell them why however.
Also, remember they may not be traveling with GCA geeks 

Why?
Incredible land form and piece of property.
Incredible scenery.
Fun golf and not real difficult.
Quite a few interesting/unique holes.
The downhill par three off the tower/mat was a lot more memorable than seeing another version of a Redan hole.
I thnk the pub on the beach on the back nine is a really cool feature for an afternoon round on a holiday. (the pictures we too there were one of the highlights of the trip-along with the sixsome we played in from there in the company of the Captain from nearby Porthmadog)

Jeff

I admire you for being more easily pleased than myself especially since you crossed an ocean and I would be more excited about the lovely drive through Wales rather than the golf.  Honestly, Nefyn could do with a complete overhaul. There is no reason (other than money - but I think a good design would repay the owners handsomely) why that site should produce a mediocre course or be thought of for primarily for its views. 

Ciao 

Sean,
I'd have no objections to a thoughtful "overhaul".
What exactly would you do in a redesign? specifically.
Could that possibly be cost effective in a remote region where low green fees/annual subs are the norm?

As an example, my group plays their golf on some of the better courses of Eastern Long Island(so they would be at least as well educated as the average Joe), yet they preferred Nefyn to a man over Bull Bay which has a significantly better architectural pedigree than Nefyn. And they certainly aren't typical as they loved Pennard(played it twice), yet weren't real interested in the Ryder Cup venue Celtic Manor.
Thes guys all paid green fees-I didn't so what I think is less relevant.

In your case Nefyn makes less sense(yet you did play it) as you have architectural gems in every direction-these guys will probably never return to Wales and had to drive within 20-30 minutes of it.

People don't cross oceans just to see strategic bunkering and interesting green contours, but that doesn't mean they can't appreciate them also-along with some fantastic , unique scenery.