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Drew Standley

Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2010, 04:35:11 PM »
Drew
That is a pretty large number of courses.
How about including the whole state?
Your # 1 & 2 appear to have been accidently transposed...

I don't work real hard so it doesn't take much for me to drop everything.  :D

As for the rest of the state, I'll get back to you after I leave this fantastic range at Swansons.  8) 


Matt_Ward

Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2010, 06:55:52 PM »
Can someone explain to me how Lochivar is rated THAT high ?

Ditto what happened to The Rawls Course -- from 64th to out ?

I like Ram Rock at Horseshoe Bay but the other courses there simply benefit from being associated with the main player there.

Greg Clark

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2010, 11:27:46 PM »
It appears The Rawls Course didn't really "drop."  According to Jeff B. the course needed a few more raters to show up to qualify for the Top 100 list.  It is ranked number 9 in the public list - the same as it was in 2009.  As the #8 public course (Horseshoe Bay - Applerock) is number 52 on the Top 100, and the #10 public (Cypresswood - Tradition) is at number 54, The Rawls Course would have moved up nicely if a few more had seen it this past year.

John,

Welcome to Dallas.  As you surely know, The Morning News sports section is very strong.  It is pretty much the most honored sports section in the country over the last 20 years.  It has clicked along nicely since the retirement of it's highly thought of editor Dave Smith.  Despite what flaws may exist within it's annual golf section, I'm not aware of another paper that has anywhere near as organized or as comprehensive of an effort.  I think very highly of the few raters I know.  These type of lists are always going to stir debate, and the reality is that many golfers just have a different idea of the attributes of what makes up a strong course than many (or most) on this site do.  Or at least they weigh different factors more heavily than we do here.  Good luck in your new endeavor.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 10:59:30 AM by Greg_Clark »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2010, 10:51:40 AM »
Despite the "should architects be on panels" discussion, which people clearly have differing views....
This is a newspaper that is ranking courses for it's readers.
It is not stating that it's views are gospel..it is an informative and fun ranking od a State's courses...no more than taht.
If Jor Blow from Houston is driving to Dallas and wants to know where to play, he can consult the rankings and get a generel view of the best places to play....what is wrong with that?

The critisism the rankings have recieved on this site are unjust...the ommision of Rawls due to failing criteria for inclusion may be a mistake and a sign that criteria has to be changed....but also shows integrity that criteria was not altered just because a layout was designed by such a respected architect.
That is an issue that can be addressed for future years, perhaps to allow for a year where the adequate number of raters are unable to visit without a course's exclusion...open to review by the DMN I am sure.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2010, 11:22:36 AM »
Michael,

No fair bringing reason to this argument!

I got to thinking about the Rawls course and how it would rate on the Doak scale, given that of about 100 people committed to traveling Texas and playing most of the courses, only 20% decided it was worth the approximate 300 mile drive (dfw to lubbock, but other parts of TX are naturally further, with some closer)

If a 6 is worth driving across town to see and a 7 is worth driving 100 miles to see, and an 8 is definitely worth a special trip to see, where does a course where 20% of Texan raters in the real world drive/fly however far rate?

It fails the 7 test of a pretty setting, but certainly meets the "generally excellent layout" criteria of an 8.  My guess would be that it is a 7.5?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2010, 12:38:01 PM »
 Jeff,
I would agree with your evaluation of Rawls...as My Duran says, it's conditioning leaves alot to be desired, the grass is usually sparse a sa aresult of the weather in that part of the state.

 To whomever asked..
As for are there any courses in the State to drop and travel...
Colonial for sure
Whispering Pines without a doubt
So those two I would play at the drop of a hat...both would be in my top 100 anywhere.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2010, 03:15:22 PM »
KBM,

Well thanks for not calling me unethical this time.  Again for the record, I never was and never will be.  I participate specifically since it gives me a chance to go see more Texas golf courses, which I like to do.  I don't push my own courses and I don't vote others lower. In fact, if I do have a tendency, it may be to elevate all modern courses a bit in the rankings, not lower them.  So, your last comments about me having some vendetta against Tom Doak are another public slam against me that I don't appreciate, and which are inaccurate.

I am really tired of you semi slandering me.  And how long should the DMN put up with your misrepresenting Rawls as "free falling?"  It maintained its rank in the public sector rankings, so it went nowhere.  But you seem to have your own personal reasons your own self for mispreresenting things in your former home state......and a tendency to think that you can say anything inaccurate that you wish. 

I don't particularly feel that the DMN has to answer to your criticisms.  It is just so easy for anyone - especially from a great distance - to find fault with rankings criteria.  If they did what you suggest based on one course not getting the voters, it would surely be unfair to some other course that made the Top 100 within the rules that exist.  In general, I think any change based on a one time happenstance to a course would be wrong. Now if it happens that many, many courses don't get ranked then perhaps some changes are in order. 

I am told that the average panel member rated 93 courses. 41 of the panel members rated more than 100 courses. Only five rated fewer than 30. So much for the charge that our panelists don't get out much.  So, with all that reviewing going on, perhaps the word of conditioning or other issues truly kept panelists from making the trip and perhaps conditioning kept it out of the top 100 as a result.  And, it could very well be that with the economy, fewer panelists are out traveling to play golf, and that is a factor that might have to be considered.  I don't know but I trust that the collective thoughts of the statewide panelists beat yours, opined from such a distance. 

I think you are right that personalities play a part in any ranking that I am aware of.  I have no grudge against Tom Doak and haven't heard of anyone else on the DMN panel having one.  I know that like the National mags rankings, the DMN does everything it can to make them as fair as possible.  Under an old regime, there were tradition points, which kept long time courses in the ranking even if their votes were falling.  Of course, many could see the fault with that system, too.   A worthy course like Dallas National might never have made the rankings based on the old system, and of course, then they would complain.  Come to think of it, Rawls might not have made it either under an older system that had tradition points!

And that is precisely why I think your "charges" against the DMN system are invalid. You are picking on one data point and suggesting and inferring big and terrible things from that.  I think most can see that one data point isn't enough knowledge for anyone to extrapolate ANY sort of conclusions from.

In short, when you come up with the perfect ranking system, like fellow Texan Ross Perot, we will be all ears. Until then, I ask you kindly to leave my name out of any cheesy argument you might make about the DMN rankings.  Thanks in advance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jim_lewis

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2010, 03:32:38 PM »
KBM:

Let me begin by saying I don't know you or Jeff and, as far as I know I have never played a course designed by either of you. I don't live in Texas and have no stake in the Texas course rankings.

I have read many of your posts over the past few years, and the only impression I have of you is what I have gleened from reading those posts. Here is the impression I get.

You seem to be an angry man who suspects the motives of others. Your posts contain inuendo that seems rude, off base, mean spirited and unprofessional. I presume that is not the image you wish to project, but that is what I read into your comments. I don't think I am alone. I hope you have all of the design business you need, because I don't think your participation on Golfclubatlas is likely to attact a lot of business.

You don't need to reply. I have said all I plan to say on the subject. I suspect you will reject my comments. Think about it. I probably should have sent this message privately, but you don't seem to object to calling names in public.
Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2010, 03:41:36 PM »
You know what Kelly...
I was giving you the benfit of the doubt per your personality..now I think you are just an  angry ass with an agenda.
A personality issue....against Doak...you clearly dont read that much on here!!!!!!!
I am one of the mans biggest fans..love his work and I am sure I have played more of his designs than you have...so dont accuse me of having any anti Doak sentiments

And once again you missed my point...I am just one of the raters...do not make the policy and recognise that perhaps there is a problem in the criteria which allowed for a bigger drop for the Rawls than it should have...that been said..The integrity of the poll was not altered in THIS YEARS final poll..in terms of altering criteria.
Not packing myself or anybody on the back, but also not saying that it would have been appropriate to change a list of criteria for one course.
If you cannot understand that logic, then clearly you have no reason to even be passing comments....

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2010, 04:13:19 PM »
Kelly,

Maybe I should go back to the digital issue and make sure my facts are right, too.

But my understanding is that it maintains its rank on the public course side, and fell out of the oveall top 100 soley because it only got 22 of 25 rankers which is the minimum for the Top 100 ranking, while 20 is the number for the public ranking.  I know Golf Digest has similar disparities for ranking best new and top in state and it causes some funny results sometimes, but it makes that sort of difference seem common.  It seems logical that your top ranking list should have the tightest requirements, no?

Now, that is unfortunate, to be sure, but it could happen to any course.  If it happened to a lot of courses, I am sure that they would tweak the system.  I can tell you that the weekend of publication (Friday and Saturday night) I got a few phone calls fact checking the info on my courses on the list.  My point is that given time constraints, even if they recognized a problem, I doubt they would have time to change it up last minute.

We might very well get some memo regarding tweaks to the system for next year.

Now, not to get anyone worked up about the system any more than they already are, but they specifically tell you that you can, by definition only have a few 10's, a certain % of 9's etc., and most get a 5.  In other words, while you might have, say all four courses at Bandon (if they were in Texas) personally ranked as a 10, if they were in the DMN rankings, which say there can only be three 10's in the state, one of the four would have to be ranked 9.5.

In some ways, that makes the system very easy to rank courses.  At some point, after establishing your 10's, or actually anywhere along the line, you just have to ask your self if you would rather go to course X or course Y and the winner gets the higher ranking.

Given the Rawls conditioning, and the ah...ambiance... of Lubbock vs the piney woods of East Texas, it would not be hard to say that it could lose out on a course by course comparison to others, especially if word was out that conditioning is bad. My point was that in the real world, this dedicated group collectively made the decisions in enough force that Rawls wasn't worth the visit this year. 

I don't think the rankings are purely architecture in this case anyway.  If a course is suffering conditioning issues, maybe it should drop off the top list.  I don't know, but they are trying to measure this from a golfers perspective.  And, maybe in that sense, adding gca's to the list is actually a good thing, since it theoretically keeps the gca factor more in the rankings than if only golfers (who are well known to be impressed with conditioning) were doing the rankings.

In other words, no matter how you cut any system there are pluses and minuses that we can debate.

And, again, the ranking is just a misfortunate happenstance, which might have happened to any course.  Is that really a reason to trash the whole section?  Or to restore a one year hiatus for any course that meets a similar fate?  Possibly and I would be fine if they do that based on this circumstance. Or, I would be fine if they keep it the same and have a list of courses that didn't get the necessary voters out to see it.  I am guessing that no one at DMN thought it would be such a kerfuffle on a web site like this..... :-\
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2010, 04:18:02 PM »
Well said jeff...and before Kelly chimes back in presuming some sort of conspiracy...I have never met Jeff, do not get kick backs from him if I play any of his courses...and am 100% sure he does not know me from Adam.

jim_lewis

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2010, 07:16:07 AM »
Thanks Kelly.

Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2010, 08:41:44 AM »
Kelly,

Thanks.  For a couple of guys who don't think ratings mean too much, we over discussed them a lot.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2010, 08:57:13 AM »
If conditioning (or lack thereof) was a major determing factor in any course not drawing people, perhaps an instance like this should be looked at as a wakeup call for course operators and developers alike.  A great design can be poorly received due to poor maintenance and conversely, a mediocre course can be received as something better if the maintenance is great.  For those who think cutting a few maintenance corners will help the bottom line, there is a lesson to be learned.

Although being a fellow architect I claim bias, but I tend to agree with Jeff in that as architects, we tend to be able to look past surface blemishes and judge a course on a deeper set of criteria.  In fact, some of the criteria that is important to us probably has a much lower emphasis by those who just play golf.  

I would also hope that others in the "Allied Industries" - club pros, supers, etc, are also on the panel as they have different vantage points.  Hopefully, the sum of the panel is greater than the individuals who make it up.
Coasting is a downhill process

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2010, 09:00:12 AM »
Kelly...
It's all good mate.
Discussion is the gca spice of life ;D

Lou_Duran

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2010, 10:50:17 AM »
Since my name was brought up in this thread in regards to conditioning at Rawls, below is the content of my E-Mail to Michael W-P:

"As to Rawls, a course I have relatively high in my TX list, it is a controversial facility both in its design and conditioning.  There are a number of golfers who don't care for the highly contoured greens on several difficult holes (e.g. 8, 16), the sometimes thin fairways and green surrounds, and the aesthetics.  Having played it a couple of times in the first year it was opened, and again last year, I found it surprising how little the course had matured, no doubt owning to the harsh west Texas environment.  Though not in agreement, I can see how my fellow raters might have it in the second 25, perhaps closer to #50, once it does get enough votes."

With regard to the overall content of this thread, Greg Clark's comments in reply #59 summarizes my perspective.  Like all human endeavors, the DMN rating process is not without flaw.  I've been around the block a few times and can state without hesitation that the effort is led by an individual with high ethics, smarts, diligence, and a desire to continually improve.

Lastly, in my humble opinion, those who believe that Texas is devoid of excellent golf simply have a very narrow point of view, or, more likely, just don't know.  Come on down and visit sometime in the spring or late fall.   
 

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2010, 11:51:40 AM »
Amen to Lou and his views on Texas golf.....it is not all about Hogan and Nelson ;D

Sam Morrow

Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2010, 08:15:32 AM »
Amen to Lou and his views on Texas golf.....it is not all about Hogan and Nelson ;D

Yeah, you forgot Trevino! ;D

Sean_A

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2010, 12:28:27 PM »
I am surprised first that you are on the rating board as an architect, doesn’t smell right....

Kelly are you suggesting that architects should not be on rating sustems?
If that is the case you lose the best source of knowledge for a ranking...or ...are you just suggesting that Jeff is not objective enough as an individual.
Either way, I think that sort of remark is what is hurting this website, personal attacks that are out of order.
This is not a personal attack on you at all..just an observation.

I am absolutely saying an architect should not be on the board. An architect could be corrupted by this system. An architct may not be objective. We are dealing with human vanity, human ego, humans trying to make a living, you have a perfect formula for corruption here by allowing architects to be n the board. Common people, non college educated, poor, simple get to elect the President of the United States, they don't need special qualifications to make that choice. You non-architects should be smart enough to judge a course, you don't need architects on your board. If you do then turn the process over to the ASGCA.

Folks are getting on KBM's ass for his opinion, but he is unequiviically correct.  Nobody on this board can seriously believe that an archie isn't placing himself in a very dodgey position by acting as a public judge for his courses and his competitor's courses.  It doesn't matter how ethical one is when there can be the appearance of impropiety.  Afterall, its awfully hard for the regular Joe to check up on one's ethics in these matters.  If folks can't see the conflict of interest in this situation then I suspect the entire conversation is a waste of time.   

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Drew Standley

Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2010, 02:13:25 PM »
If conditioning (or lack thereof) was a major determing factor in any course not drawing people, perhaps an instance like this should be looked at as a wakeup call for course operators and developers alike.  A great design can be poorly received due to poor maintenance and conversely, a mediocre course can be received as something better if the maintenance is great.  For those who think cutting a few maintenance corners will help the bottom line, there is a lesson to be learned.

Although being a fellow architect I claim bias, but I tend to agree with Jeff in that as architects, we tend to be able to look past surface blemishes and judge a course on a deeper set of criteria.  In fact, some of the criteria that is important to us probably has a much lower emphasis by those who just play golf.  

I would also hope that others in the "Allied Industries" - club pros, supers, etc, are also on the panel as they have different vantage points.  Hopefully, the sum of the panel is greater than the individuals who make it up.

Course conditioning plays a huge part in whether I am going to make the trip to play a golf course.  In my opinion you can't hide bad design with impeccable conditioning but you can sure screw up a good one with poor maintenance. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2010, 02:46:56 PM »
Sean and Kelly,

I certainly understand that there could be an appearance of impropriety, and even impropriety itself, but could argue whether anyone really gets hurt, which is why its just not that big a deal in this type of matter. 

Let's say I rate one of my own courses way to high to boost it up in the rankings.  Raters go play it (or average golfers go play it) and don't like it. I think they then rate it lower because of their perceptions than they might have otherwise, and/or vote with their wallets and don't play anymore.  The truth comes out one way or another and for every round a rating might give, it can take away at least one, right?  Life has a way of balancing out, and I don't think your respective opinions consider that as highly as they might.

I just don't see any real "danger" unless you think all golfers are like lambs getting led to slaughter!  The rankings are advertised as the collective opniion of 100 so called experts in golf and that is exactly what they are.  Would they be better if the courses were ranked by a bunch of blind chimpanzees who never play golf? Wait, don't answer that........ :)

As to whether you belong here, I say you do.  Why is it that you are comfortable in the presence of Tom Doak, the original "architect in judge of other architects" (well at least in this generation) who formed a panel of one, but draw the line with all others sitting on panels as 1% contributors to the consensus opinion?  If you feel like gca's shouldn't try to influence others opinions in public, well, you should have been gone in protest long ago, no?

BTW, you will notice that in these discussions I have made no mention of my own dozen plus courses on that Texas list, precisely because it seems unseemly to promte my own work here.  You can be sure that I disagree with the overall rankings of some, and that I had one drop off the public list completely after a high ranking in the last few years, for reasons  I don't know.  But, no one here cares about that or makes a big deal, and I just accept the rankings are what they are.

In the national rankings I feel I have been "wronged" a few times, too.  While Kansas State, for example, ranks in most mags as the top public in KS, I recall being out there during grow in and meeting some panelists with connections to existing highly ranked courses telling me that the group of them was going to vote KSU very, very low to hurt its chances.  Apparently, they did (although I can't know for sure) because it wasn't on the final Best New lists anywhere.  I had another two with the points to make the list that were dropped for different reasons.  But, I am also sure that every gca can tell similar stories of courses that "should have made the top or Best New list...."

I live to tell the tale, and I am sure Tom Doak's esteemed reputation will not suffer one iota from this little miscue by the DMN.  I know that because no gca has all winners and top ranked courses in their portfolio, and it hasn't affected their reputations either.

In short, these are just some real world examples of how not getting the "right" ranking (whatever that is) doesn't really pose any danger to the gca's, and in reality, doesn't really hurt golf courses (although that one is hard to prove without summoning everyones financial records, etc.)  IMHO, if there is no practical effect, then there really isn't any theoretical effect either, at least when it comes to something as benign as golf course rankings by a local newspaper.

so, IMHO, you should obsess a little less and then stick around and continue to contribute to the discussions!  But, that's just my opinon (which by the way, is certainly NOT more important than yours!)

Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carl Nichols

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2010, 03:48:26 PM »
I don't really want to wade into this too much, but I'm curious -- is the list of panelists disclosed? 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2010, 04:47:32 PM »
I don't really want to wade into this too much, but I'm curious -- is the list of panelists disclosed? 

Absolutely. Its listed right there in the golf section.

Once again, I got to wondering if there is any "empircal" evidence that any course gets "damaged" by not winning any particular ranking on any particular list.  I gather the damage would have to be economic, and I have never seen any headline reading "course loses ranking, files bankruptcy!"  I don't think I have ever seen a course file a suit or even very loud complaint specifically against any magazine for its ranking either.

Back to economics, the DMN has a Sunday circulation of 520,000 readers.  If 10% of those are golfers, in line with state trends, then DMN readers constitute about 2.5-3% of Texas approximately 1.5-2Mil golfers.

How many rounds could be lost due to a low or a lost ranking?

Given that well over 90% of decisions on rounds played are based on course proximity, fees, friends, word of mouth, and things like bad backs, honey dos, etc. how many rounds are left for the traveling Texan to go play at a far away place like Lubbock? 

The typical golfer might make one or two buddy trips a year, etc. and he has a lot of places to choose from.  Any out of town course is likely to get played on a once every few years at best, statistically speaking.

Again, in simple terms,

What real world examples have we seen where a course suffered economic damages because it didn't achieve a rank?

Could we prove it wasn't conditioning, a surly pro, etc? 

Could we prove that course X suffered more when losing its ranking than it got when it had a ranking? 

How do we account for some unranked courses get lots of play. Would they get more if they got ranked, and raised their fees? 

And do ranking discussions actually elevate all courses? 

Does a course ranking change your opinion of it? Or like Groucho Marx, do you believe your own eyes or the DMN (or GolfWeek,GD, or Golf?)

Or do they simply serve as discussion fodder here and in 19th holes across the country, as their "lowly" mission is often cast?

If someone has some hard data of real life damages and dangers of course rankings, other than bruised egos and hurt feelings of their respective owners or memberships, I would like to hear it.  Thanks in advance.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lang

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2010, 09:47:03 PM »
 8) to some it maybe hard to believe.. but in my 18 yeasrs in TX, I have never read the DMN, let alone consulted its rankings to select somewhere to play... about 5 hours is farthest road trip we'd consider..

and finally heading to lubbock in april.. but we're flying not driving,(then heading to ABQ and back ro black Mesa ..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2010, 09:31:12 AM »
Kelly,
Pointless to leave this site because a few people disagree..
Heck nobody here except me thinks that Royal Birkdale is the best course on the Open rotation...but thats fine!
Dont leave because some wanna be  golf course designer/Englishman like me...with no criteria other than his own opinion fails to see the logic of rankings without true experts having their input.
Your opinions on this subject carry far nore weight than my own..so your leaving of this site would be a mistake from my point of view.

Sean..
I dont think at any point Jeff, myself or anybody else EVER said that the possibility of 'partiality' WAS NOT A POTENTIAL PROBLEM...Our  point being is that reason enough to stop the input of the people who know most about a subject from participating?

Jeff may indeed br partial to his courses, but he is just one of many panelists...In my naivite perhaps I trust architects to have enough integrity tobe honest enough overall to be a apart of the judgong process.
To most of us I think their input of knowledge and expertise..overrides and partiality they may have.

That was the point.

Kelly stick around...your input IS ALWAYS valuable...and little spats like this are not enough to drive you off.....in fact I relish the opportunity of meeting sometime, so that you can show me just how little I really know ;)

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