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Jeff Spittel

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2010, 09:21:19 PM »
Nice. My home course (BraeBurn) doesn't make the top 100. I know there isn't a ton of Bredemus' work left, but I have a hard time believing that some of the other courses in Houston should be ranked that much higher.
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

John Handley

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2010, 09:33:52 PM »
Interesting take on Texas Golf courses.  There have been quite a few new designs pop up over the past 10 years and most seem to be highly ranked no matter what list it is.  It seems like there are some old classics in Texas, especially in the Dallas area that seem to be forgotten, ie. Brook Hollow, Lakewood, Northwood, etc.  I don't know Dallas golf too well and look forward to experiencing what is out there.  I figured this would be the group to know the hidden or forgotten gems and have opinions on rankings. 
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Carl Nichols

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2010, 09:34:56 PM »
Whispering Pines must be visually stunning -- it has six of the 18 most beautiful holes in Texas!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2010, 09:44:19 PM »
 8) Ben, its spring, the winds are up.. are we still going to venture to The Rawls before it gets hot?

John, how about having DMN report on rounds played per course per month.. or open tee times via surveys or is that impossibly quantitative?  Certainly living in The Houston area, anything Dallas is suspicious.. not evil, just healthy intrastate contempt like between the Aggies and Longhorns... or not unlike the interstate UM Skunkbears vs The OSU Buckeyes fun.. I assume you know that Austin has the most educated wait staff east of berkeley.. I don't know about golfers however.. other than there's a lot of 'em playing over 100 rounds a year and still complaining
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2010, 10:36:27 PM »
 8)  The driving range at WP also has very interesting views
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2010, 09:15:59 AM »
I am with Jeff 100% here.
I am on that panel and agree that the guy in charge takes the job very seriously.
It is always easy to look at a ranking, nit pick it and disagree...same goes with any ranking I have ever seen.
The DMN final list is no different.
Personally I think the ;ist is about right...like most lists seem to get it about right...should Dallas national be number 2...for me no...but many really like it.
Should Rawls be in the top 100...of course but it did not meet croteria...so be it.
Just because it is a Doak, does not mean that you abandon your criteria, that would not be correct.

It is a good guide to the people of Texas to go by, has its faults as do all the rankings I have ever seen, but certainly does not deserve to be pooh pooed in any manner at all.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2010, 09:34:52 AM »
I am surprised first that you are on the rating board as an architect, doesn’t smell right....

Kelly are you suggesting that architects should not be on rating sustems?
If that is the case you lose the best source of knowledge for a ranking...or ...are you just suggesting that Jeff is not objective enough as an individual.
Either way, I think that sort of remark is what is hurting this website, personal attacks that are out of order.
This is not a personal attack on you at all..just an observation.

Tim Nugent

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2010, 09:42:00 AM »
KBM - I hope you have that "coversation" on tape as it is quite slanderous.  Are you going jump on Tom Doak for doing the GM list?  And what's wrong with having Architects give their opinion?  Afterall, they are, by definition, experts.  In fact, Doak used to send out questioniers to Architects - seemed like an effort to get a broad enough range of opinions to make the poll statisically pertinent.   Of all the people I know, Jeff would probably be the last to participate as you insinuate.

 Rankings are just that "Rank".  Although confusing, it wasn't hard for me to extrapolate Rawls not being on the 100 list but #1 in it's category.   My lone TX course was ranked in the 100 above courses that it ranked below in the category list - go figure.  Just goes to show that no system is perfect.  And anyone who thinks so deserves what he gets.  Personally, I make up my own mind based on what I like and dislike and don't need others to tell me what's better than what.  Those who rely on rankings are just leemings.
Coasting is a downhill process

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2010, 09:54:06 AM »
But all boards of any nature have diversity on them.
Medical boards have Dr's and "laymen" on their boards.
I do not know a golf rater system that does NOT have architects on their panels...I certainly dont view them all as faulty based on the prescence of architects.

I belive the input of the architects as vital...after all they know more about the subject matter than anybody.
Removing them from any panel would be the equivalent of removing Dr's from state boards....that puzzles me
Perhaps I just hold you architects in too high a regard..I assume that you can be objective about other peoples work..if that is not the case...I stand corrected. :-[

Jeff Spittel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2010, 10:04:03 AM »
I'm also curious as to how Beaumont CC doesn't crack the top 100. Sporty track that our own Mike Nuzzo helped restore.
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2010, 10:04:59 AM »
I'm not following the medical board analogy.....when did golf course ratings boards become a matter of life and death? I thought they just existed for financial gain.....

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2010, 10:12:48 AM »
I'm also curious as to how Beaumont CC doesn't crack the top 100. Sporty track that our own Mike Nuzzo helped restore.

What are the chances that 25 of these guys will ever see Wolf Point?   ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2010, 10:30:46 AM »
Joe..
okay replace that with the board that regulates what happens on wall street...do you think that doesnt have any people familiar with the business?

It was just the point...ANY board I know has some people on it familiar with what is being judged/voted upon.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2010, 11:10:11 AM »
Michael,

Being familiar with the business is far different than being the business....in golf, at least. I think the Wall Street analogy does more for providing a reason not to allow the foxes into the henhouse, as it were.

I see both sides of this, BTW. Having the experts be a part of it would seem to be a good thing. The inherent/ potential conflict of interest can not be ignored, however.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2010, 11:33:35 AM »
Well, I have said it before, any rater who is known to a course in question is automatically suspect.  Ratings have to be done in secret and without any sort of incentive to show up if they are going to have much weight.  I think that if golf ratings were done like Michelin rates eateries, then all the lists would be different. 

My second beef is 100 courses!  There can't possibly be anywhere near 100 courses in Texas worth being on a rating.  This is just stupid. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2010, 02:39:45 PM »
I'm also curious as to how Beaumont CC doesn't crack the top 100. Sporty track that our own Mike Nuzzo helped restore.

Helped Baxter Spann renovate.
It is more fun than a lot of courses on the list - very small property too.

Jeff Brauer - have you played the Rawls course?

Jud
I don't know if 25 people have seen Wolf Point.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Drew Standley

Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2010, 05:46:35 PM »
Ranking Texas courses is like trying to pick the skinniest kid at Fat Camp.

There are definitely some fun courses to play here in the state but very few stack up nationally.  I guess this ranking did what it was supposed to do which is have everyone think about Texas golf (good or bad). 

I do know that the few times I've met up with GCA'ers from out of state here in Houston, we were more concerned about tipping the mariachi and shooting Patron than discussing Bredemus.  So, we got that going for us which is nice. 

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2010, 11:41:53 PM »
Drew,
I agree.....   was that analogy you in camp?   :-*
Are there any courses in Texas that you'd drop what you were doing to go play?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2010, 09:10:53 AM »
Mike N,

Yes. And, I have walked it while watching some high level competitors play it to get a sense of that, too.

Kelly Blake Moran,

I have a few problems with your post, mostly summed up nicely by Tim Nugent.  While you label that conversation as hypothetical, I fear many won't remember that part, since that is what so often happens, so that is pretty damaging to post with my name on it. If hypothethical, why not use a made up name?  That is just really, really, low, IMHO.

For the record, I have never called anyone on the DMN panel to get them to go vote on any course. Nor have I promised any client or potential client any sort of influence on the panel. 

As I explained in a previous post, I declined for years, and after getting on the panel, continue to vote my courses reasonably, or even lower to be sure I am fair regarding my own work.  The thing that convinced me to join was that there is really no one on that panel without some bias, because all are members of clubs, employees of clubs, etc.  Who doesn't have some kind of conflict of interest?

I guess its MUCH MUCH better to have a panel made up of nothing but access whores, eh?  Frankly, I have seen those guys vote way down or way up based on how they were treated at a club, so I doubt they give a totally unbiased ranking either.  So every ranking system has its inherent weaknesses, period. But, no one gets hurt in it either, whether some future course in Laredo, TX makes the DMN list.

BTW, while you can leave my name out of it, there IS often some lively discussion about just how much if at all a gca or golf course should promote itself for best new in the national mags.  Insiders usually accuse the well to do of flying people around to see their courses, etc.  Some gca's never mention their projects to known panelists.  Most are somewhere in between.

Is asking a rater to go see a course unethical?  Paying for lunch? Paying for the round?  Flying them there on your private plane?  Some level of promotion is certainly ethical.  I can't imagine a Presidential election without some campaigning, for instance, but taking certain kinds of money and contributions is considered wrong.

You get the idea.  The DMN panel is so far down the list of priorities that I have to wonder how stringent the ethical standards you imply should be in force really need to be.

OH well, just some more pre coffee rants.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2010, 10:11:57 AM »
Kelly,
I also stated somewhere that I am tired of the whole rating business. No problems there, but people seem to like them to stimulate discussions. Please note how many ratings threads occur right here.

I offend raters by comparing the promotion of a new golf course to the promotion of a policital candidate?  Not sure I follow. Its the golf courses that promote themselves, but the raters play along and are just as guilty of any crimes that are committed then. But, there is no crime.

I also agree that its important to gca's and yes, I feature my Best New Awards prominently. Potential clients seem to like that I have designed some well regarded golf courses.....but the GD system is that the gca nominates the courses because that is the easiest way for the magazine to contact candidates. I find the "nominated as a Best New" to be particularly shameful, but I don't know any architects who use it, just owners and its kind of wrong.

That said, it happens.  I recall the scene in the Paper Chase where the professor gives the naive student a dime and tells him to go call his mother to tell her that he is not going to be a lawyer!  I get that feeling here.  There really is some level of promotion that goes on for new courses, existing courses, and gca's as part of keeping the doors open.

You seem to want to apply a higher standard than most would deem necessary, but you are entitled to your opinion.   
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Drew Standley

Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2010, 11:19:45 AM »
Drew,
I agree.....   was that analogy you in camp?   :-*
Are there any courses in Texas that you'd drop what you were doing to go play?


Mike,

I wasn't a fat kid but I'm sure plump now.  ;)

My "drop what I'm doing to go play" list limited to the Houston-ish area (in no particular order):

1.  Whispering Pines
2.  Wolf Point  ;D
3.  Carlton Woods - both courses
4.  Champions - both courses because I know I'll have good company on the course and in the locker room
5.  River Oaks - only because I haven't played there yet
6.  Miramont


Jason McNamara

Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2010, 02:34:15 PM »
Lou Duran, are you out there?

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2010, 03:06:18 PM »
Drew
That is a pretty large number of courses.
How about including the whole state?
Your # 1 & 2 appear to have been accidently transposed...
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2010, 03:30:27 PM »
 8) Lou was last spotted in the Houston area playing the ol' TPC a month or so ago
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 Texas Golf Section - Dallas Morning News
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2010, 03:47:16 PM »
Drew
That is a pretty large number of courses.
How about including the whole state?
Your # 1 & 2 appear to have been accidently transposed...

By drop everything he means leave Swanson's and actually go to the course.

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