What do you think of "composite/hybrid" courses for major events?

[Sam Maryland]

I was watching the Johnnie Walker tourney over the weekend and they made note of the fact that it was a "composite" layout with holes taken from each the two courses at the site.

Ridgewood and The Country Club are a couple other courses that come to mind as using a "hybrid" layout during major competitions.

What's the reaction to this practice?

[BCrosby]

If your best 18 holes for big tournaments are drawn from different courses, so be it. I see no serious problems.

There are some minor problems. As a visitor, you won't play the composite course. Raters have a problem for the same reason. What couse(s) are they rating?

BTW, East Lake once had a second 18 and for certain tournaments used a composite course. The Ryder Cup played there in '63, however, was not played on a composite course.

Bob

[Garland Bayley]

I thought it would be interesting to hold a major someplace where there were two distinct styles of courses. Play 9 on one, 9 on the other for a more "complete" examination. Anyone know of a facility with a Pete Dye and an Alister MacKenzie? A RTJ and a George Thomas? A Tom Doak and a Tillinghast?

Started a thread on it once, but it didn't go far.

[JESII]

Garland,

What does a Tillinghast course lack that a Doak could add in terms of completing the examination? Or vice versa...

[Garland Bayley]

Tilly was into fairness and lack of blind shots, whereas Tom is willing to let the ball bounce where it may, and does not eschew blindness.

[JESII]

Theoretically...

[Phil_the_Author]

Garland,

Why do you think that Tilly didn't believe in blind shots? In what sense do you mean blind?

You might be surprised to see 4 at least semi-blind (I consider them blind) second shots on Bethpage Black at this year's U.S. Open. On the second shots into the greens on 2, 5, 15 & 18 the putting surfaces can not be seen and unless one has the advantage of a hole placement chart, even seeing the tops of flagsticks can only give a general location.

Tilly did employ these type of blind tee shots as well as others at a number of his courses.

As far as clubs where a course that he designed is part of a club which has another by a modern architect, two come to mind. The Philadelphia Cricket Club has it's wonderful Tillinghast Wissahickon course and it's terrific Hurdzan/Fry course. Two distintively different styles. There is also the Baltimore Country Club whose Tillinghast 5 Farms (or East) course has hosted two major championships and is the home of the Senior Tour Players as well as the West course which was designed by Ed Ault and opened in 1962. It was redesigned by Bob Cupp and Tom Kite in the 1990's.

In addition, you also might consider playing the newly restored Bedford Springs golf course. Having just opened for play after a sensitive and well-done restoration two years ago and features 18-holes designed by Tilly and Donald Ross.

[PCCraig]

Well I know at TCC Brookline the "member's" course includes a few holes that would be total pushovers for the professionals. So they just take 4 holes on the Primrose nine and turn them into 3 big time tough holes.

I don't think they would be able to play the members course as is with pros, for example, the normal 10th hole (310yards) would be a 3-wood par-3 for many.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Why do you think that Tilly didn't believe in blind shots? In what sense do you mean blind?
...

Phil, I suffer from the malady of being book learn'ed. I based my statement on what he has written that I have read. So it could very well be he employed more blindness than he advocated.

[Phil_the_Author]

No problem Garland. Tilly didn't believe in CREATING blind shots for the sake of having one, but rather utilized them where the natural features of the course brought them into being.

For example, the 5th hole on Bethpage Black could easily have had it's green placed at the end of the valley floor, yet Tiully chose, and rightly so, to place it on the upper left plateau area just beyond. As a result what would have been a good strong par-4 became one of the greatest two-shotters in the world.

A similar hole is the 14th at Fenway. Here you have and uphill and then slightly down right-to-left elbow hole whose green and entrance can't be seen. At 320 yards it is eminently drivable and totally blind for that as well as the landing area for any drive hit. Yet when one arrives, plays and finishes it you see that it was a wonderful way to connect the holes before and after. Quite natural as the rest of the holes are that work their way up through, around and back down the hill.

Another example of this is the 1st hole of the Dellwood CC in New City, New York. It was designed as the private golf course for Hollywood mogul Adolph Zucker and today serves the club whose name it bears.

The first hole is bisected by a public road about 340 yards from the tee. Tilly could have placed a green at the base of the hill on the opposite side (1925 & not many cars at all) yet instead chose to put the green on top of the 60 foot hill beyond. At 430 yards, in many ways it plays similar to the 15th hole of Bethpage Black. Imagine having a second shot like that played OVER an active public street to a totally unseen green complex!

[John Moore II]

I see nothing wrong with a composite course so long as it doesn't slow up play and that sort of thing because of long walks between some of the holes. I know Bob Huntley has talked about a composite course at MPCC that would be awesome with pretty much all the holes on the ocean. They also do something like this at Prestonwood CC in Cary (right outside Raleigh) for the Champions Tour event. I think its a fine idea.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sam -

a few months ago, I might've posted some disparaging thoughts about composite-hybrid courses, arguing that they lessened the purity of architectural intent and altered the nature of the championship test.  But then Mark B had that wonderful thread on Royal Melbourne's composite course, in which the learned Mr. B suggested that it might be the greatest course in the world. Even if it was only a close second or third in that regards, I now know I'd be crazy not to want to see a major event played across it. 

So maybe I'm finally starting to let the facts get in the way of a good story...

Peter

[JESII]

But that's just the point Peter, isn't it? Wouldn't it be ideal for the Tour guys to play their own courses and not the actual courses real people play?

[Christoph Meister]

Hi,

I am not sure that you consider a German Open, a German PGA Championship or a German Amateur Championship as a major event, but nevertheless I wanted to let you know that starting in 1958 the US Army was regurlarly providing 9 holes of the then US Army Wannsee Golf Course to be combined with the then 9 holes of the "Golf- und Landclub Berlin-Wannsee", the latter designed by Colt, Alison & Morrison, in order to make up a composite course at Berlin.

Between 1990 after the fall of the Berlin wall until 1994 the composite course "Kombinierter Platz" was played one day a week and during major championships. In 1994 the US-Army left Berlin and gave back their 18 holes to the Golf- und Landclub Berlin Wannsee.

Today the Berliners are playing the former composite course on a day-to-day basis, with the exception of hole nr 8 which is closed and replaced by a new no. 17.

I hope you find this information interesting, at least it has to do with a US-Golf Course.....and without the US-Army the communists would have closed that course also like 15 others in Eastern Germany....

Regards,

Christoph


  

[Anthony Gray]

  I do not like composite courses. They just seem like a lie.  I do like the annual event between Prestwick and Troon. Where they play over to the  opposite clubhouse, have a dram then play back.  That's cool.

  Anthony

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim - I'm not sure I understand your question, but I was pretty convinced of my stance until you asked it. Then I thought: wait, I want the pros to be like real people, or at least as close to real as possible....

Peter

[JESII]

Peter,

Wouldn't it be better if the organizing bodies would build and (more importantly) only modify the courses the top guys are going to play?

They can still play our courses on their off weeks, but the organizing bodies will have no opinion on whether or not a specific green of ours has enough hole locations for four tournament rounds and three practice rounds at a speed of 13 feet on the stimpmeter.

I guess my thought in terms of "composite courses for 'major' events" is that once you let the wolves into the chicken coop you've conceded "the purity of architectural intent" you might have had previously.

[Peter Pallotta]

Understood now, Jim - thanks.  While I'd never thought about that, it makes sense when you lay it out that way. For some reason, though, the modifying of existing courses is more palatable to me than the creation of new and specifically-targetted golf courses. I think it's because I can imagine the latter soon becoming the new-normal for the rest of us.

Peter

[Sean_A]

To be honest, I have always thought that its a bit of a shame to have two courses where perhaps one course covering the same ground could be superior to either of the two.  First growth Bordeaux focuses on delivering the best product possible - even if it means sacrificing the lesser quality grapes to help the better grapes be the best they can be.  This is the sort of club I would prefer to be a member of.  Get 18 holes as good as they can be, then worry about whats left over.  So no, I have no problem with composite courses so long as its the best 18 holes.  Of course, the best 18 isn't necessarily the best 18 - if you know what I mean.

Ciao 

[Jim Sweeney]

Chris-

I love the intimacy of the routing at the Berlin GC. I have a (strange, maybe) affection for areas such as the convergence of hloes 4,6,8,11,13, and 14. It is necesary to see it in person to really be able to get a sense of how those holes all come together. I can imagine the golfers passing one another several times during a round, laughing and kibbitzing all the way!

[Christoph Meister]

Jim,

the holes you are referring to are mainly "German" holes, and yes your description of the atmosphere on these holes is execellent. From when it was reopened in 1953 until 1994 the 9-holes of ther German "Golf- und Landclub Berlin-Wannsee" were a real place of intimacy, but beside that exactly these nine holes were good golf holes originally designed by Colt & Co. around 1928.

I have enclosed a plan of the 1953 routing of the German Golf Course and a photo of hole no.9 of the U.S. Golf Course (not a Colt hole) in 1951 for you!

Regards, Chris

[Christoph Meister]

A recent addition to my archive is the enclosed scorecard from the 1965 English Amateur Championship which was won by Sir Michael Bonallack and played over a composite Red/Blue course at the Berkshire Golf Club.

Does anyone of you know if this was the only time the composite course at The Berkshire?

What do you think about this composite course?

Christoph

[Tim Martin]

I think the answer lies in the quality and success at both TCC and Ridgewood. As far as a spectator I would much rather see the Barclay`s at Ridgewood or Westchester than Liberty National. Westchester is another course where some composite routings could be explored with the South Course of which there are some great holes.  As good as Winged Foot West is it may be possible to come up with a fine composite when using some of the holes from the East. Even though Philadelphia Cricket has two different courses from different eras this is another possibility as previously stated.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I have no major issue with composite courses, but I would rather see big pro tournaments played the way the courses were intended to be played. I just think it provides more excitement for the spectator who has played/will one day play the course... Its cool to be able to say/remember where your ball was (for all 18).

The only Ridgewood course I am familiar with is the composite course because thats the set up they used for the Met Open. I'm sure most guests want to be able to play that set up, but will never get the chance. And playing all 27 and keeping a separate card for the 18 isn't the same.