Defending Slow Play

[Craig Van Egmond]

I don't think there is any defense for slow play for non-tournament play and some of the pro's are downright embarrasing how slow they are, but they are playing for there living and we're just living to play.

One thing about all the fellow GCA people who I played with at Pacific Dunes last fall, none of the them will ever be mistaken for slow players. You better be prepared to keep up.

[Paul Richards]

Craig:
Maybe it's just that Links-type golf makes you play faster?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Paul,

    I'm sure that the course style has some merit to the speed of play, however guys like Rich, Johnv, etc. just get up and hit the ball they don't seem to spend a whole lot of time in there setups.

    A couple of years ago myself, Evan Fleisher, Tim Wiemen, JohnV and one other that escapes me at the moment played Mid-Pines as a fivesome in well under 3 hours while walking. We played serious ready golf to get done before nightfall and this was after playing Tobacco Road earlier.

    We do have our not so proud moments, I won't even say how long it took Peter Pittock, Jim Reilly, Dick Daley and me to play Crystal Downs.  We were savoring the moments thats for sure.

    

[Jim_Kennedy]

 
As Paul noted, not being ready is the #1 offender. If golfers were into their respective routines in overlapping succession, approximately 30 seconds per 4 shots could be saved. If using the 18 hdcp. as a model and not counting tap-ins, this translates into 36 minutes saved per round. There is no better place to save time than with readiness and short pre-shot routines.

[Evan Fleisher]

Craig,

The "mystery" fifth player was none other than Mr. Daley.

I have to agree with JimK and other recent posts regarding "ready golf".  There is no excuse to play "honors" golf these days, and even if you do there is STILL no excuse for not being ready to execute your shot when it is your turn.

I think that cart golf ads to some of these problems, especially when it is cart-path only rules.  I see too many folks carrying one club out to their ball, instead of several.  Make sure you "cover your bases" when headed out to make your shot.  And near the greens, always carry several clubs allowing for a variety of shot options and the ability to keep moving while your cart partner can possibly move the cart up.

Nothing worse than seeing someone have to go back to the cart for a putter...

[Shane Gurnett]

Guys
1. Hit when ready. Forget about the honour.
2. 5 minutes to look for the ball is too long. Should be two minutes (player only).
3. If you cant finish in 4 hours, then you should be escorted off the course.
4. Once you start putting you have to keep going. No marking in between putts.
5. The trick is to make sure that there is a ball moving (in play) in your foursome at all times. If not, then somone is too slow. If you have to wait for someone, they are too slow.

[Paul Richards]

Shane:

Excellent!

Now if we could just get everyone to adhere to this ...

[Robert_Walker]

Rich Goodale,

Has your friend ever officially timed players in National or International Tournaments? Is he familiar with the proper procedure for timing a player?
 
I'm curious

r

[Rich_Goodale]

Robert

Yes.  Yes.

PS--why do you care so much about this little bit of trivia?

[Doug Wright]

Shane,

All great ideas for those in your group to adhere to. Unfortunately, pace of play is a "weakest link" thing, and your group can do all of these things and more and end up standing around waiting on every shot. All it takes is one or two groups ahead taking their sweet time and your pace of play is stopped dead...I guess that's a question--was Sergio's group "on the clock" or otherwise out of position at Kapalua? I know, I know, there is  a serious perception problem when the masses think 24 waggle/regrips is acceptable, and I suspect his playing partners are grumbling, but I'm curious if Sergio otherwise is putting his group out of position.

[Paul Richards]

Today's Quote:

"I DON'T RECALL THAT SLOW PLAY WAS A PROBLEM IN
RECREATIONAL GOLF UNTIL THE AVERAGE GOLFER HAD THE
BAD EXAMPLE OF THE PGA TOUR ON TELEVISION."

--Frank Hannigan, former USGA executive director, in the
January 2002 issue of Golfdom.

[Matt_Ward]

When you bring out to the course all the goodies (i.e. beverage cart, the tube top college co-ed, etc, etc) you get the death march you see at most facilities. Heaven forbid -- the course in question doesn't have imported beer when you're playing and the cart person forgets it!

Let's not forget the inane policy of mandated carts but you must stay on the cart paths at all times because if you don't some old-f**t will come leaping out of the woods like a highway patrol officer and admonish that you're not following the rules. When I have to lug several clubs from one side of the fairway to the other you have a problem with speed of play.

All courses need to do is add TV's mounted on trees with 100 channel capability and a few cigars. Why not a massage on each tee?

Sad to say, many people aren't into the golf -- they're into being pampered and want all the goodies.

One last item -- no one plays from the tips unless one of the staff actually watches you hit balls prior to playing. There are more people with phony handicap cards that claim all sorts of things. This is particularly so when people visit one of the big name clubs and must see "all the course." The result? Absolute death for those trailing behind.

Just an opinion ...

[JohnV]

The biggest reason for death marches at public courses is 7/8 minute tee times.  If you are teeing off 8 players every 15 minutes you will never get them moving.

Scott Burroughs, there is a rule for slow play, it is Rule 6-7 Undue Delay and the penalty is 2 strokes in stroke play.  But, the Committee has the power to modify it according to the rules and they usually do.  One reason for modifying it is to define what is slow play (ie taking over 40 seconds on a shot) and what is out of position (ie getting to a par 4 with the green clear.)  Since each Committee wants to have their own policies it makes sense to allow them to modify this rule.

The PGA Tour does need to put a pace of play policy in place that gives out strokes and enforce it.  Until they do, slow play will persist.  Unfortunately I don't see them doing that anytime soon.

The LPGA and the Futures Tour (where I was a rules official the past two years) have pace of play policies that they enforce.  On the Futures Tour we handed out 19 penalties in our first 19 events last year and I can assure you that when a group of players saw one of us following them, they picked up the pace immediately.  The LPGA has been good in the past (even penalizing Nancy Lopez) and hopefully they will keep it up.

The worst slow play problems are actually the European players.  With Bernhard Langer, Nick Faldo and the Swedish contingent probably being the worst.

One thing to remember in regards to slow play is that if you are keeping up with the group in front of you, you can take as long as you like.  That is what Jack Nicklaus did for years.  He walked fast and was at his ball quickly.  Then he took his time.  But since he didn't get behind he didn't get on the clock.  Now he doesn't walk so fast and his group gets timed occasionally.

By the way, I also know who "Deep Bunker" is and will vouch for his knowledge and experience in tournament officiating.  The story, as I know it, was that it was the 10th hole at the US Senior Open in 2000, don't know which round.  JWN's group was on the clock.  He was second to hit from the fairway and took 1:05 from when the official started the clock until he hit the shot, with no reasons to stop the clock for distractions.  The official wrote down 40 on the sheet.  I don't know who the official was.  The group got caught up at the next hole so perhaps the official knew this would happen and gave him a break.

[Rich_Goodale]

John

You make a very good point regarding the Nicklaus incident I reported.  I had not at all thought, when told the story by our apparently mutual friend ("Deep Bunker") or subsequently, about the relationship between his group and the next group.  My own personal practice these days, particularly when playing tournaments, is to pace my play with the group ahead of me.  For example, if they are on the tee when I get to the green I spend more time on my putts than I normally would.  Alternatively, if the the group ahead is already well down the fairway when my group gets to the green I will do my best to finish the hole as quickly as I can, within the context of doing the best I can to take the lowest number of strokes on that hole.

As we've disucssed on this DG a few times before, consistency in place of play is critical to overall fast play.  Playing too fast and continuously bumping up against groups whose only sin is to be behind a slow group in front of them is nearly as counterproductive as playing so slowly that groups behind bump up into you.  Anybody who has taken Basic Training in the US Army and made it through the field marching part of the curriculum and observed the "accordian effect" will know this for a fact.

Rich

PS

I still think that Nicklaus is a slow player and was a bad example for other golfers, even when he was in his prime, but I will cut him some slack, now, based on what you have said.  Perhaps you, me, Robert Walker and "DB" can get a game someday and debate this issue in more depth?

[Dan Kelly]

Rich --

That sounds like a fun foursome.

Will you be doing your debating DURING your round?

Kind of a funny picture, you have to admit: four speed freaks (i.e., expeditious players) bounding down the fairways, yelling back and forth about how slow Jack Nicklaus was or wasn't, is or isn't.

[Rich_Goodale]

Dan

Like all speed rounds, we will move immediately in a beeline to our balls and communicate only by cell phone between shots, e.g. ("Bunker?  You're away!" sqwuakk..... "I hit it Robert, short left, near the bunker, you're up."  "Rich! Rich!  You're aiming at the wrong hole!  Oh Christ, I didn't think anybody could hit that hard of a hook!"  Sqwuakk, quakkkk.  "John V, JohnV?  You can't have hit your drive that far??!!"  "Jesssus Christ you airmailed the NEXT green!"

It's a great game, and we call it G O L F!

Cheers

Rich

[Paul Richards]

shivas:

your 5 points are right on.

how do we get people to stop wasting so much time out
there?

[Matt_Ward]

As much as players must be prepared to play when it is their turn let's keep one thing in mind -- at the heart of the issue is management at any facility.

Most clubs, from my experience, talk a good game about slow play but do very little.

When I started playing at Passaic County GC (Wayne, NJ) the emphasis from ill-trained rangers was to concentrate on the junior and women. Why not the men? More often than not the rangers knew the men and did not want to upset them for fear of being ostracized from their usual groups.

Management at many facilities is very quick to grab the $$ at the register, but most taxpayer owned facilities (and a good number of upscale clubs) usually are clueless about slow play.

One of the issues already mentioned is the gap between groups. I laugh out loud when any facility spaces groups at 8 minute intervals. You could have world class professionals lumped that close together in foursomes and the result would usually be the same -- a major back-up.

The other element is the one I previously mentioned -- mandated cart paths when using a cart. Guaranteed crawl.

I can't imagine any facility not being able to chart where the slow play points are at their course. At those locations rangers should be located to keep things going. Too many rangers are either hawking for balls or checking out the bikini teen in the pool next to the course.

Another example is the person who waits on a long par-4 or par-5 with a possibility in reaching the green with their second. shot. Too many of these "Tiger" type players actually thing they are going to hit their career best and reach the green. On holes of this type when the group in front has recahed the green it takes no more than a few seconds to wave the group behind to play up. Most players rarely get home in two on any long par-4 and also on any short par-5.

Also, management needs to enforce etiquette ... not in an arbitrary manner but across the board. Years ago at another taxpayer Jersey club I remember a regular player who became extremely abusive to the ranger. The situation was clearly beyond the spirit of the game. What happened? The facility contacted a sheriff patrol and the policeman entered the grounds and physically escorted the golfer in the patrol car (hood lights on) and off the grounds. The person was also suspended for a period of time. Clearly, that is an extreme example, but the pace of play at taxpayer courses in many parts of the nation (especially in the metro areas) is just abysmal.

Ask most players when play backs up who is reponsible and you get the usual answer -- "it's the guys in front."

If you want to start any efforts to crack down on slow play just ask what, if any thing, management at that facility is doing. In most cases -- very little and if they are doing things it is at best inconsistent and enforced on those groups that are not "connected" to the powers that be.

Just an opinion ...

[Damian]

Probably the key element of slow play by Pros that amatuers take to their own club is the "up yours" factor. If Garcia says he won't play until he's ready, then he's basically said to his fellow competitors "I'll take as long as I like and you can all just go to hell". Just saying he has a living to make doesn't cut it as far I'm concerned for the simple reason that all his fellow competitors are also trying to make a living and his actions (or inaction) does not recognize this. Anyway, I am utterly convinced that it can't be good for his game to take so long over the ball. The first time I saw him do it (US Open 2001), I thought he had the yips with every club in his bag!!!

I think club players have 6 key problems that cause slow play:-
-  They wait for the green to clear before they hit their second shot (with an iron) when they are closer to the tee than the green (they've probably hit driver from the tee!!!)
-  Care too much about honour on the tee and the order of play elsewhere (if you're ready, then hit!!!)
-  Do not look at putts until it is their turn to putt
-  Fail to watch the ball when they are spraying it all over the lot
-  Walk to each of their playing partner's balls before their own, instead of walking directly to their own
-  Instead of walking briskly, they stroll in a rather leisurely way

I'd favour stroke penalties in the pro ranks for slow play. For club players, a clock at the 10th tee would be appropriate and the starter monitoring the time it takes to play 9 holes. If longer than 1hr 50mins ---> good bye.

[Gene Greco]

   Obviously, slow play detracts from the overall enjoyment of PLAYING the game. How about when WATCHING it?

     I can't watch Sergio play a shot. His endless fidgeting, egocentric approach to playing each shot and the laying off of the club at the top of the swing is simply too aggravating for me to be subjected to.

     When I'm supposed to be relaxing in front of the fire, cognac in hand, vicariously playing the game I love through these golf telecasts, I find myself screaming at the darn TV, "Hit it, d-mnit!!!"

      Now when Sergio's being shown (Olazabel and Padraig Harrington as well) it is my signal to do what I would do during a normal commercial break (in this case, one seemingly espousing a snail's pace on the golf course) - get a refreshment, pee, etc.

[Paul Richards]

Gene:

All that fidgeting does warrant a time-out from watching!

[Tyler Kearns]

Moe Norman was asked about the modern pace of play on TGC Academy. His argument was that it is inherent to golf, that we misshit shots, therefore if its an inevitability, "miss it quick".

[Paul Richards]

From January 11th issue of GolfWorld:

"ESPN, in homage to Garcia's proclivity for multiple waggles, introduces the 'grip meter.' "

"Good idea.  Garcia gives new meaning to the phrase 'Grip it and rip it.' "

[Paul Richards]

"Dawdlers beware at North Berwick"
 - the caption to a photo of the starter holding a sign
reading 'A Round of Golf Should NOT Take More Than 3 Hours'

 

from "Links Golf - The Inside Story" by Paul Daley

[Mucci Patrol]

C'mon Mr. Mucci, where are ya.
I'm with Mr. Walker on this one.
You lambast Mr. MacWood for not disclosing the source of his "twaddle" (as characterized by your partner Mr. Goodale), but you don't even so much as flash your badge at Mr. Goodale for not disclosing the source of his story regarding Mr. Nicklaus.
Isn't your failure to immediately lambast Mr. Goodale's failure to disclose his source a classic "Mucci" case of bias and double standard?  
Which raises the following question:  Is it your mission in life to root out all forms of heresay in this discussion group or only in posts which you perceive to attack either you or one of your favorite architects?