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John_D._Bernhardt

Seth Raynor
« on: April 02, 2002, 09:21:18 AM »
Gib, I have confermation that Metairie CC in New Orleans was a Raynor design. It is a great story and some of the support data ie old newpaper articles etc are being mailed to me today. I am going back down this weekend to look at the aerials.  I found out this over the weekend playing there and talked to the club historian today. Ron Forse is doing the restoration.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2002, 05:41:03 PM »
I have always appreciated Seth Raynor courses, but I guess
I'm starting to appreciate them even more after having played
Lookout Mountain and Black Creek last week. :) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2002, 07:07:38 PM »
Paul, I am very excited for this will be a major find for the golf starved New Orleans area. One has to go to Mobile or Houston to find a Ross course much less a Raynor. I will do all i can to encorage the club to make as complete a resoration as possible. There are some land issues in that the club has sold some since 1921.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig Rokke

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2002, 07:25:17 PM »
I'd be curious to hear how much involvement Raynor had. I
know a Chicago-area club pro who designed courses on the side (Jack Daray) was credited with the layout by C&W.
Raynor's style seems as distinctive as any. Are there any tell-tale signs remaining?

If Forse is doing a restoration, has this revelation influenced the plans?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2002, 07:34:10 PM »
Daray it seems did the redo on the course. I am looking forward to getting some more information on what is left and what needs to be totally restored. I play at Metairie 3 or 4 times a year and frankly do not feel alot of pure Raynor is there, but i am being told there is a good bit. I look forward to the facts on this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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R.S. Barker

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2002, 08:53:57 PM »
Mr. Bernhardt,

I would be very interested to hear or see any of those newspaper clippings and information that you find out about this Raynor design.

Being a huge Raynor fan, and since I run a website on classic golf holes like the Redan and Alps, i would love to know what plans the restoration crew has IF any of the holes there fall under the classic design regime.

My appreciation to you for posting this thread..I'll be sure to look for your follow-up.

Thank you,

R.S. Barker
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gib_Papazian

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2002, 09:11:07 PM »
John,
Got your e-mail. What terrific news. Oddly enough, I received a voice-mail from Ron Forse about an hour ago and will see him on Thursday afternoon out at Peninsula CC.

Maybe I'll drag him back to the house after we are done and get him to post what he is doing to the course.

You mentioned that some plasticine models were made in your e-mail of the proposed holes. Do they still exist?

It would be worth it for me to come out there on my upcoming Miami trip for a close look.

It still astounds me how prolific Seth-man was. It is no surprise he literally worked himself to death. I doubt we will ever know the full extent of his body of work due to the depression and WWII . . . . . . but what an exciting find for you down there in New Orleans.  -Gib  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Jeff Mingay

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2002, 05:01:55 AM »
What about Joe Bartholomew? I was under the impression that he, an Afro-American, laid-out Metairie after having work for Seth Raynor elsewhere.

Gib? Geo. Bahto?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Bahto

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2002, 05:36:22 AM »
I found this out over a year ago and have been in contact with the club and local newspaper folks ever since.

Joe Bartholmew had been working with Raynor for a while learning the trade and he was the construction foreman at Metairie. Raynor visited there a few times after he laid out the course for he was also doing an estate course from a friend of CB's in New Orleans at the same time.

Ron and I have spoken about Metairie a few times and I do believe he has gotten the restoration.

Bartholemew left the Raynor firm at that point and went out on his own building a number of courses in the area and became a big-timer local hero. He sort of did he own thing  rather than following the Raynor /Macdonald philosophies. I think there is a statue of him in town also.

Metairie is among the more than 20 courses i uncdovered that Raynor never got credit for building. Found three more this year.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2002, 07:56:09 AM »
Gib, George, R.S. et al, It is great how this was discovered over a year ago and now much more information is found and the project has life. The Club President just called and a real effort will be made to convince the membership of what they have and the need to go the extra mile. I am going to assist in this even though I am only a friend of a number of members and not one myself. I hope at some point soon to request from some of the GCA crowd to write to the club supporting the significance of what they have. This is an incredible discovery for this part of the country and i am committed to doing all possible. Gib, I hope we can talk by phone and I also look forward to talking to Ron about his findings and feelings about how complete a restoration is possible.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2002, 07:56:52 AM »
Gib, it does not seem the old plaster models are to be found.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2002, 08:14:53 AM »
George, do you feel enough information has been found to call this a Raynor design and will it make your book. Also, the club historian seemed to feel they had a little more information since your conversations with them. Gib, I will chat with you after this weekend and your visit with Ron on whether to meet there on your Miami trip. I hope there is enough left to merit it, if for no other reason than to dust you after the humidity gets to you about 14.lol GCA, watch out for Gib is near unbeatable at Olympic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Bahto

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2002, 09:46:54 AM »
John - it is already include along with the other new discoveries

would you e mail me the historians name and # please - I'd like to speak
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2002, 11:16:04 AM »
George, His name is  Bill Wegmann Jr. and his number is 504 833 3800.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Bahto

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2002, 01:04:21 PM »
ok - that's the man i've benn communicating with anyhow - thank you
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2002, 01:19:18 PM »
It seems that 2 holes may have survived mostly intact. the par 3  150 12th is a copy from NGL and the par 5 18th is from a club on Long island named Nassau GC in think. I am pleased to say the kid birdied the 18th on sat.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Bahto

Re: Seth Raynor
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2002, 02:12:37 PM »
ok - that's the man i've benn communicating with anyhow - thank you
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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