[T_MacWood]

Is Emil Loeffler's contribution to the design of Oakmont understated? Should he be given more credit?

As far as I know HC Fownes never designed another golf course. His son is given some credit at Oakmont (with Loeffler) but as far as I know he also never designed a golf course. Loeffler must have designed or redesigned 75% of the golf courses in Westerm Pa during the 1920s (all while still the superintendant at Oakmont).

Are Oakmont-like features found at other Loeffler designs...perhaps toned down a bit?

[George Pazin]

Pulling this one up so maybe someone with more knowledge can comment.

I haven't played too many Loeffler courses, despite living in western PA. JohnV's home course has 9 original holes that are Loeffler and 9 new holes that are Ault Clark (I think).

The Loeffler holes aren't so much reminiscient of Oakmont as reminiscient of the older style. The greens seem to fit the earth better, which leads to some pretty strong pitch to the older greens. Same thing goes for generally fairway contour. I think there are at least a couple of greens that fall away from the approach, which is a feature at Oakmont. I can't for the life of me understand why fallaway greens are not more prominent throughout golf, other than perhaps they are viewed as "unfair".

[JohnV]

Many of Loeffler's designs feature a par 3 that is very similar to the #8 at Oakmont.  The hole that is currently #11  (#7 orginally) at Hannastown is one.  The original 9 holes has severe greens including a number of them that slope away from the player or to one side or the other.  He also connected the putting green to what is now the 18th green (#9 orginally).  But, in the case of Hannastown it is connected to the left side of the green instead of behind it at Oakmont.  It is protected from play by a large oak tree.  The bunkering is not as severe as Oakmont's and it is no where near as difficult.

Nemacolin Country Club also has a par 3 that is similar (#4), but since Tillinghast redid the course after Loeffler's original design, I'm not sure if it is Loeffler's work.

Loeffler was a partner in the architecture business with John McGlynn who was the superintendent at Oakmont before him.  When McGlynn left, Loeffler (who had been Fownes Jr.'s caddie as a youngster) was hired as superintendent.  They designed at least 20 courses in western PA, including: Alcoma, Beaver Valley, Brackenridge Heights, Chartiers, Churchill Valley, Hannastown, Hillcrest, Nemacolin, St. Jude, Wildwood, Oakmont East and Williams (in Weirton, WV.)  Alcoma and Beaver Valley also have similar par 3s.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

Apparently the 8th hole at Oakmont was redesigned by the super, I think, that came after Loeffler and Fownes. Remember Forrest Richardson knows him and was talking about that on here some time back? I suspect that William Fownes probably had as much or more to do with the way Oakmont turned out than HC. William Fownes was an interesting guy, big in all facets of golf---he won the 1910 US Amateur and was Pres of the USGA in the mid-twenties--big at PVGC too. From some of what's recorded about him at PVGC he had some strong opinions and strong ideas on architecture.

There's a man around here who used to serve on GAP with me who was the Merion Green chairman in the 1970s, I think it was, who's Emil's nephew. He worked on the crew at Oakmont under Emil when he was a kid in Pittsburgh and there's nothing he doesn't know about him. Next time I see him I'll ask him about Loeffler and his architecture other than Oakmont.

One thing he's always maintained is not many of us today can really understand how much faster Oakmont's greens were than every other course in the world under Emil and Fownes. Emil had some interesting ways of juryrigging his mowing equipment to produce unheard of speed for those days! But the speed was apparently the dictate of W. Fownes!

[JohnV]

Tom,

It is very possible that #8 was redesigned by someone after Loeffler and Fownes, but the basic concept of a very long par 3 with a green at surface level that slopes away and to one side was probably there all along.  We have a copy of the new Oakmont Centennial book in the office and I'll see what it has to say about how the hole was originally.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

I have no idea about #8 except that I think Forrest Richardson said the man he knows who was the super was responsible for the redesign.

[T_MacWood]

I forget what Forrest said about the 8th hole....when and why it was remodeled. But it appears to me the hole today is identical to the hole during Loeffler's time.

Was the younger Fownes ever involved in design work at Oakmont or else where?

From what I understand Loeffler was made the head pro at Oakmont during his long stint as greenskeeper...pretty unusual.

JohnV
Does the Oakmont book discuss the evolution of the golf course and the role Loeffler may have played?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

The bios, architectural and otherwise of H.C. and W.C. Fownes as well as Loeffler in C&W are likely pretty accurate. C&W generally went to the clubs for their research and Oakmont seems to have always been pretty well organized that way. Maybe Mark Studer will notice this thread and add and clarify.

All three of them were very fine golfers. It appears the course is pretty much how H.C (and W.C.) laid it out in 1903. H.C. was the President of the club for about 20 years until his death in 1935 and W.C. and Emil worked on improving the course right on through. Emil became greenkeeper in 1913 and head pro in 1930. Emil retired in 1947 and W.C. died in 1950.

W.C. and Emil are pretty much given credit for continually toughening up the course for perhaps decades with tough bunkering and unusually fast greens.

The club today pretty much considers that the recent work done to the course, tree removal, and some redesign bunker removal and restoration is a return to generally the way the course was at W.C. Fownes's death in 1950.

[JohnV]

Tom Macwood,

The book doesn't have a huge amount about the evolution of the course, but the one chapter devoted to it does have quite a bit of interesting information.  There is more on the great tree removal controversy than any other changes.

In looking through it, I see that the 8th green was moved about 10 yards in the 1950s because of the construction of the Pennsylvania Turnpike.  But there is also an aerial view from 1925 in which the hole looks quite similar to today, just moved a little.

[George Pazin]

I believe Forrest said that the super in question softened the pitch and surrounds a bit because golfers complained that the green was too difficult to hold.

I think he claimed that this gentleman did quite a bit of work on Oakmont, work which he obviously feels is well regarded.

[Tom MacWood]

bump.

[Emil Weber]

Tom I never knew there was a GCA with my name!

Where was he from, the name sounds really German (both the pre- and surname)

Sorry I can't contribute to the thread.

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