NY Times story stating most golf courses in China are illegal.

[Craig Sweet]

This is pretty interesting...


http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/03/07/sports/sports-us-golf-china-courses.html

[B. Mogg]

This is pretty interesting...


http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/03/07/sports/sports-us-golf-china-courses.html

Not really - nothing is as it seems in China. The law is one thing - it's who you know that really counts!

[Rob Miller]

I don't know if the story is wholly accurate, but I've seen documents for one well-known 36 hole course in Shanghai.  It's licensed as a driving range. 

[B. Mogg]

I don't know if the story is wholly accurate, but I've seen documents for one well-known 36 hole course in Shanghai.  It's licensed as a driving range. 

When they banned luxury villas in China many years ago they first banned "luxury villas", so developers called them something else and voila - no more luxury villas. Then they decided to define what a luxury villa was, problem was they made the definition so precise and narrow that developers just changed the floor space or garden space or whatever and voila - no more luxury villas.

Many golf courses in China are not called golf courses, maybe golf parks or golf theme parks or even environmental parks - or driving ranges.

Of course the government (at some level) knows what is going on but chooses to turn a blind eye. Golf courses are seen by local govt as a necessary "evil"/investment required if they want to draw foreign investment to their county. Most golf courses that are happening are definately happening with the knowledge and sometimes at the behest of the local and provincial governments (perhaps not the central govt). A lot of them are even being developed by the local governments themselves through their various holding companies.

As the Chinese say, the mountains are high and the emperor is a long way away (or something like that) - these local governments need to hit their investment targets for the year and building golf courses helps them do it.

[Tom_Doak]

Many of the party officials, at least in the provinces, are golfers themselves.  However they try very hard to keep a low profile at the club.

I've been told the ban is mostly because the current President is not a golfer, and it will probably be rescinded once he is out of power.  But it is highly unlikely he doesn't know what's happening.

[David_Tepper]

Since most golfers in China ride carts, maybe they call them "cartball" courses, in honor of Melvyn and Garland.

[Jim_Kennedy]

A factory worker in China might make beteeen $70.00 and $90.00 per month. I would think that it wouldn't be popular for the government to be seen as promoting golf as it might upset the 'comrades' to know that a green fee is twice their monthly salary and their 'bosses' are paying an average of $53,000.00 to join a club.

       

[Jason Connor]

A factory worker in China might make beteeen $70.00 and $90.00 per month. I would think that it wouldn't be popular for the government to be seen as promoting golf as it might upset the 'comrades' to know that a green fee is twice their monthly salary and their 'bosses' are paying an average of $53,000.00 to join a club.     

Which is why I disagree when people say that China is a Communist country.  It ceased being so quite a while back.

[Craig Sweet]

The story was emailed to me last night...now that I read it I see they are talking about the 20 courses in one area... Beijing.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Golf has done well in Mexico under similar pay scales. I don't know if the average factory worker cares or should care what the rich are doing. They probably have enough pride to believe they are responsible for the financial successes of their country and remain content to live their lives. Interesting issues.

Perhaps they would 'care' if they knew.

[George Pazin]

A factory worker in China might make beteeen $70.00 and $90.00 per month. I would think that it wouldn't be popular for the government to be seen as promoting golf as it might upset the 'comrades' to know that a green fee is twice their monthly salary and their 'bosses' are paying an average of $53,000.00 to join a club.     

Which is why I disagree when people say that China is a Communist country.  It ceased being so quite a while back.

Perhaps you should rethink your definitions.

[Garland Bayley]

Since most golfers in China ride carts, maybe they call them "cartball" courses, in honor of Melvyn and Garland.

Must I remind you that the term comes from the USGA, and I only use it out of my great esteem for that organization.

[Jim_Kennedy]

China uses coal for somewhere between 70 and 90% of it's energy needs.

It pollutes the atmosphere and turns it's water into filth so it can have a cheap natural resource to use while it pays its labor force diddly squat to build solar panels and wind turbines for the rest of the world.

That's irresponsible on their part.

[Garland Bayley]

China uses coal for somewhere between 70 and 90% of it's energy needs.

It pollutes the atmosphere and turns it's water into filth so it can have a cheap natural resource to use while it pays its labor force diddly squat to build solar panels and wind turbines for the rest of the world.

That's irresponsible on their part.

That's outdated thinking Jim. They realize they are polluting like crazy, but they also realize they can't grow while continiung the polluting so they are embracing clean energy technology way beyond what we will do. From what I have read they are passing us in this regard at break neck speed. They are not stupid, they know the old ways of energy pollution can not continue to be sustained.

What we should be doing is building our green technology to help them, ourselves and other countries. We could do the same in golf development. We could be exporting our best ideas in sustainable design and maintenance, and to those ends take advantage of the incredible opportunities they give architects to innovate along those lines of sustainable design and maintenance. It is an opportunity for architects to seize, plenty of projects to experiment and innovate.

Yes, we are very much in danger of ending up buying green technology from them. As read in either Forbes or Fortune, our national green energy policy has been a disaster. Carter started the ball rolling, and we could have been a power house in the area, but Reagan put a stop to the whole shebang, thereby bankrupting what had been promising businesses. Clinton got it started again only to be done in during the Bush administration. And congress wonders why they are so hated. The partisan infighting causes each party in power to kill what the other has done. It's bad for business!

[Jaeger Kovich]

I don't know if the story is wholly accurate, but I've seen documents for one well-known 36 hole course in Shanghai.  It's licensed as a driving range.  

When they banned luxury villas in China many years ago they first banned "luxury villas", so developers called them something else and voila - no more luxury villas. Then they decided to define what a luxury villa was, problem was they made the definition so precise and narrow that developers just changed the floor space or garden space or whatever and voila - no more luxury villas.

Many golf courses in China are not called golf courses, maybe golf parks or golf theme parks or even environmental parks - or driving ranges.

I'm pretty sure that the article about Hinan Island actually did call them something else.... I lifted this from that article

"During the planning and proposal stage, however, golf is rarely mentioned. That is how developers get around the supposed national moratorium on building courses. “No one calls it a golf course now,” one industry insider told me. “Instead, it’s a green space or it’s equestrian or it’s an exercise field. They are creative. But the government knows. It’s just all about loopholes.”

For example, in 2008 the China Youth Daily reported that the word “golf” does not appear in Mission Hills’ agreement with the local government to develop in Hainan. According to the newspaper, the document describes a “land consolidation” project that will “improve the production and living standards of the local farmers and promote the building of a new socialist countryside”."

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

the crazy thing is that Americans are the leading innovators in solar panel technology, but there are no plants in the US building them. The plants are in India, Germany, China, and on. The reason there are no plants here is because government has not done enough to create the demand in the US. Some help is there. A course I designed in NJ is powering everything by solar panels including a shopping center on the periphery of the property by the end of this year. I have a friend that is powering his home with panels and selling electricity back to the power company, but these are the exception rather than the rule. The reason China is selling us panels, and I bet we are their smallest customer, is because they get it.

My only response is that Jimmy Carter "got it" a long time ago, but then he was only a non teflon coated engineer like me.

[PThomas]

China uses coal for somewhere between 70 and 90% of it's energy needs.

It pollutes the atmosphere and turns it's water into filth so it can have a cheap natural resource to use while it pays its labor force diddly squat to build solar panels and wind turbines for the rest of the world.

That's irresponsible on their part.

and the safety record for their mining is shockingly bad

[PThomas]

A factory worker in China might make beteeen $70.00 and $90.00 per month. I would think that it wouldn't be popular for the government to be seen as promoting golf as it might upset the 'comrades' to know that a green fee is twice their monthly salary and their 'bosses' are paying an average of $53,000.00 to join a club.     

Which is why I disagree when people say that China is a Communist country.  It ceased being so quite a while back.

Perhaps you should rethink your definitions.

might i refer you to the book Out of Mao's Shadow...they dont behave like that in democracies

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

Are you suggesting we behave well in democracies?  Have you been watching the news at all the past few years?


Jim:

You seem to be very anti-China for someone who's never been there.  I would agree that their social structure is far from ideal, but considering where they were 30 years ago and where they are today, they seem to be making quite a bit of progress on many fronts.

As for pollution, the Chinese (and Indian and Brazilian and general emerging-market) perspective is that the US and Europe still pollute 4x as much per capita as they do, so they take our comments about how they should behave as somewhat disingenuous.  That said, the pollution in Beijing is worse than anyplace I've ever been ... partly because the coal plants are on the west side of the city, and the wind blows all the smog right toward downtown.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom D,

Were you ever in the LA basin during the lead gas burning days? If so, how does it compare to Beijing?

[PThomas]

Paul:

Are you suggesting we behave well in democracies?  Have you been watching the news at all the past few years?


Jim:

You seem to be very anti-China for someone who's never been there.  I would agree that their social structure is far from ideal, but considering where they were 30 years ago and where they are today, they seem to be making quite a bit of progress on many fronts.

As for pollution, the Chinese (and Indian and Brazilian and general emerging-market) perspective is that the US and Europe still pollute 4x as much per capita as they do, so they take our comments about how they should behave as somewhat disingenuous.  That said, the pollution in Beijing is worse than anyplace I've ever been ... partly because the coal plants are on the west side of the city, and the wind blows all the smog right toward downtown.

Tom, i  meant in terms of human rights and things of that nature

i realize we have plenty of problems here, unfortuantely

[Rob Miller]

Pollution is a serious, serious problem for China and not just in Beijing.  The waterways are also in bad shape, a majority of the Yellow River is classified as undrinkable.  The leadership is saying and doing the right things but when you see some of the nastier things firsthand, it's hard to jump on the bandwagon. 

It takes time and needs to filter down to the local level.  In many cases the greening of China is simply the realization that the path they are taking is not sustainable and there is economic incentive to pollute less. 

Growing up I've heard stories of how bad Pittsburgh was a few decades ago so I suppose that someday in the future most Chinese will have similar stories.

[B. Mogg]

China uses coal for somewhere between 70 and 90% of it's energy needs.

It pollutes the atmosphere and turns it's water into filth so it can have a cheap natural resource to use while it pays its labor force diddly squat to build solar panels and wind turbines for the rest of the world.

That's irresponsible on their part.

and the safety record for their mining is shockingly bad

From the first quote - and the US doesnt/didnt at the same stage of their development? Gimme a break (maybe a visit down West Virgina way is needed).  I love how countries that have developed and used their own natural resources sees fit to preach to other countries trying to develop. China knows it has a problem though and is acting on it - but its pretty hard to wean yourself from coal - as the US well knows.

As far as safety standards, yes not good but China is also trying hard on this front. The problem is it is a big place and a lot of the unsafe mines are small village operations. They are trying to consolidate and close down the smaller mines but it takes time. In the meantime many die.....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom Doak,
If you think I'm anti-China you're mistaken, and I really didn't think you'd resort to the 'you haven't been there' argument. This isn't the 19th century Tom, and I don't think you're a China scholar either.

B.Mogg,
I'll say the same thing to you, I'm not anti-coal, and Americans have dealt with the safety and pollution issues pretty well.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:  I would hardly claim to be a China scholar.  Far from it.  But the more I travel, the less I trust the American media to give a balanced portrayal of the way things are everywhere else in the world.  [Plus, it's fun to see the opposite view, too ... you should see how foreign media portray my hometown of NYC!]  I think it helps to meet people and hear their perspectives, although I am fully aware that most of the people I meet are among the privileged few.  Then again, not everyone here [nor, apparently, Jim Bunning] hangs out with many of the 20% unemployed in America, either.

Even our official government positions are often built around fear of foreigners now.  If you check out the Department of State's travel advisories, you'll find that the government would prefer Americans not to go to Africa or the Middle East or most of Asia at all, lest we put ourselves in danger.  I'd be more okay with that as long as they added some neighborhoods in Detroit and south central L.A. and parts of rural Idaho to the list, for balance.