[Matt_Ward]

Great graphic posted on today's telecast -- since coming to PGA National's Champ course -- the field is +1300 (rounded off) over par on the final four holes.

I have not been a big time fan of many FL courses but The Champ deserves more credit than most. Too much of FL is redundant and repetitive layouts that don't really exercise much beyond the same tried and true formulas.

The Champ's final four -- dubbed "The Bear Trap" -- is simply delicious stuff.

Architecturally, the course gets little attention from many here -- possibly because Jack's name is tied to it.

The two par-3's -- #15 and #17 are really tough holes -- and when the wind blows they only become even harder. H20 is part of the mix -- but it takes real execution of the highest order to handle. them.

The par-4 16th is also a solid hole -- long enough to keep players from clubbing down too much at the tee and the approach is no small feat to a well contoured green.

Of all the holes -- the closing par-5 may be one of the most thrilling and demanding three-shot holes in the world. It can be reached in two blows -- but it would be really require a combination of supreme length and first rate acciuracy. The hole has H20 but it's skillfully placed to keep players thinking -- and you must think for all of its 552-yard length.

I only wish all of the world's top players would play The Honda because despite all the fanfare that goes to Bay Hill and Doral -- The Champ takes no back seat to any of those Tour sites and in reality is far, far better than many give credit.

I've played the course about a half a dozen times and the BT at the final four is A-L-W-A-Y-S on your mind.

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: Here's my problem with Florida golf - at least at PGA National.  The only thing tough about it is the water - take away the water and you really don't have much in the way of architecture that creates a challenge to the golfer.  The green contours are nothing special and the recovery shots are just typical thick bermuda.  Where are the angles - aren't they they beginning of great architecture.  I remember Mirasol had some really challenging green complexes with severe falloffs which made for some tough recoveries.  Tough doesn't mean good.

[PThomas]

am i wrong or are 15 and 17 basically the same shot??

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

C'mon -- are you serious with that position of yours or what !!!

What if I said the same thing about taking the H20 away from the 12th or 13th at ANGC or the 18th at PB. The "what if" mode doesn't make any sense.

Have you played The Champ ? There are angles -- my God, if the place were designed by Doak you'd have people on this site gushing about how unique it is.

The contours on the green are quite perplexing and Johnny Miller said it best regarding the grain influence -- Nicklaus also provided a few insightful comments during his time in the booth today.

Jerry, let me say this -- for all the hype Bay Hill and Doral get -- The Champ for me is the better golf course.

Paul:

No, they are not. The 15th heads back in a northerly direction - the shot is shorter and the H20 is more of an issue than what you see at #17. #15 is also shorter than #17 by a decent amount.

At #17 the hole moves towards a more Northeast fashion -- so the wind pattern will likely be different at both holes.

Gents:

Let me say this again -- the par-5 closing hole there is one of the best three-shot holes one can play -- just a really good strategic hole and the execution has better be there. For a hole on dead flat land it's a home run hole in my mind.

[Chris Buie]

I was thinking the same thing Paul.  It's nice that there is a bit of variation between 15 and 17 as Matt points out.  Still those par-3's so close together are just too similar. 

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: Is there water in play on each of the holes - there, I rest my case.  Oh yeah  - wow, there is grain in the greens and as Johnny says - look at your shadow and it runs in the opposite direction - another WOW!  If Seminole had those as its strongest features it would be quite a golf course wouldn't it. For a Jersey boy you are easily swayed by TV hype.

[JimFatsi]

With all due respect to Jack. AS far as the Bear Trap concerned its actually Tom Fazios layout, In 1990 Nicklaus came in a redid the greens on the champ and changed a few holes around (hole # 4 Fazio par 3 is now a Nicklaus par 4, hole #5 Fazio par 4, Nicklaus par 3) (back nine: 10th, Fazio par 4, Nicklaus par 5, 11th Fazio par 5, Nicklaus par 4.  All new bunkers and Nicklaus greens, but the Bear Trap was there before Nicklaus. Nicklaus did make the course harder -  Its FLA golf!

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:
Don't forget 11, 15 and (sort of 16) at ANGC -- that's 5 out of 6 holes (or 4 out of 5 if you don't count 16) where water is a huge factor.

I haven't played there, but the reason the Bear Trap isn't compelling to me is it seems like nothing more than a suped-up version of a lot of other Florida courses I have played.  In fact, it looks like something I could design if I just wanted to make a bunch of hard holes.  I realize there's probably more to it than just that, but it doesn't strike me as particularly unique or brilliant, in ways that the best courses are. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

really tough
even harder
execution of the highest order
most demanding
supreme length
first rate accuracy
skillfully placed water

Matt
Do you think that this type of golf isn't for everyone?

The name the Bear Trap stinks...

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I guarantee I could build a tougher 4 hole stretch.

We'd start it off with a 260 yard par 3 to a green the size of TPC Sawgrass 17 and surrounded by water just the same!!
Then a 520 yadr par 4 with a fairway that is 20 yards wide with water on one side and OB on the other.
Then it'd be another Par 3 at 280 yards long with a sea of bunkers on one side and OB for missing long or left.
Then a 680 yard Par 5 that resembles something like Shinecock 16 with water on both sides of the fairway.

It'd be SSSWEEETTT!!        

P.S.  I don't see any "victories" in building tough golf holes as almost anyone could do it.  Its building interesting holes that are playable for the high capper, yet challenging for the low capper that takes the real cerebral work.

[jonathan_becker]

I haven't played there, but the reason the Bear Trap isn't compelling to me is it seems like nothing more than a suped-up version of a lot of other Florida courses I have played.  In fact, it looks like something I could design if I just wanted to make a bunch of hard holes.  I realize there's probably more to it than just that, but it doesn't strike me as particularly unique or brilliant, in ways that the best courses are.  

Carl,

I have played PGA National and your paragraph above sums it up for me.

The first time I played there in '97 was for the Optimist Junior World.  I knew nothing about gca at that point and even then I just couldn't believe that they held a Ryder Cup and a PGA.  It's mind blowing actually.

[Derek_Duncan]

Matt,

I respect your opinion about The Champ, but I really think you're overselling the merits of it. Especially the part about the 18th being one of the most thrilling and demanding three-shot holes in the world. Really?

As the eye-opening +1300 strokes over par stat shows, there's no doubt the Bear Trap is a difficult run (when the wind is blowing--when it isn't, not so much), but architecturally it's pretty typical of Florida, and pretty typical of Team Nicklaus. For someone who's vociferously on-record as not liking Florida golf, it's surprising you would praise this course so much.

Good tournament course for sure, but it doesn't stand out architecturally for me.

Derek

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry K:

My God man -- wake up -- we are talkling Florida golf here. Water is part of the mixture. You said -- if one were to take the H20 out of the picture what would be left? That sort of "what if" talk can be thrown forward to any number of other holes throughout golf. Jerry, forgive me -- I thought you were a smarter guy than in posting such an ill-informed comment.

Jerry, have you played the course in question ?

I have -- several times and the Bear Trap is not some sort of PR gimmick -- it requires real conviction in one's execution. Stand on the tee for those final four holes -- especially the sensational closing par-5 hole which was butchered by a great many golfers this past weekend.

Mike N:

The Bear Trap is really hard for the top pros because of tees played and the pins being placed in really tough spots.

The average player can enjoy themsleves if the distances are appropiate to their playing levels.

[Gary Slatter]

IMHO 
even with all the dumb "improvements" to the Doral Blue Course it is still head and shoulders above the PGA National with it's boring but difficult finish.  It is still hard to beat 3 and 4 on Doral, if you like water as a hazard.  I would rank Doral, then Bay Hill and then the Honda.  The weather can be better at Doral too.

The aerial of the 18th hole at the Honda is so ugly, it reminds me of the reverse of the 18th at Muirfield Village, stupid penal white bunkering.

[Matt_Ward]

Gary:

Check out the scores for the events and see where things sort out.

CV's winning total was the best in recent times at PGA Nat / Champ. Doral has lived off the #18 as the "monster" for quite some time and it's the only real hole of note -- and only when a prevailing south wind hits the player's faces.

Bay Hill's 17th and 18th are two tough holes but the final four at Champ are beyond the quartet there and ditto for the entire course in my mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Derek:

Ask yourself this on the par-5 18th -- it makes one have to play three really sound and strategic shots. And it does so on dead flat land. That's quite something in my mind.

I have spoken out publicly on how I detest the same yawn and predictable layouts -- The Champ is far from boring save for the first few holes.

[JESII]

Matt,

Grant me the assumption that a player can reasonably expect to hit the green from 130 yards...even into the wind...what are the strategic decisions you need to make to leave yourself 130 into that green?

I'll grant that if the player really wants a birdie they may want to get a little closer, which will bring on some risk (ie a narrower lay up area) but that's it isn't it? Would it be improved if they placed the tee so a larger number were thinking about getting home in two? They generally have an idea where the wind will come from...

[Gary Slatter]

Gary:

Check out the scores for the events and see where things sort out.

CV's winning total was the best in recent times at PGA Nat / Champ. Doral has lived off the #18 as the "monster" for quite some time and it's the only real hole of note -- and only when a prevailing south wind hits the player's faces.

Bay Hill's 17th and 18th are two tough holes but the final four at Champ are beyond the quartet there and ditto for the entire course in my mind.

I think the 4th at Doral is more over par (if that's your criteria) than their 18th which is still a very good hole even if they hit 9 irons now.  My opinion is strictly mine and I'd prefer playing both Doral and Bay Hill if I were a tour player.  As an older player, I also prefer playing Doral and Bay Hill over the Champ or PGA Natl.  Actually I don't like the changes at Bay Hill over the past ten years but it still is better than the PGA Natl in MHO.
And I predict CV will win one more of the two events.   How can you champion something called The Bear Trap?  Anyone can make a tough hole play tougher.

[cary lichtenstein]

IMHO 
even with all the dumb "improvements" to the Doral Blue Course it is still head and shoulders above the PGA National with it's boring but difficult finish.  It is still hard to beat 3 and 4 on Doral, if you like water as a hazard.  I would rank Doral, then Bay Hill and then the Honda.  The weather can be better at Doral too.

The aerial of the 18th hole at the Honda is so ugly, it reminds me of the reverse of the 18th at Muirfield Village, stupid penal white bunkering.

I agree, couldn't have said it better myself.

I have played Doral many, many times. I always found it a special experience, not so with PGA

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

You asked me the following ... "Grant me the assumption that a player can reasonably expect to hit the green from 130 yards...even into the wind...what are the strategic decisions you need to make to leave yourself 130 into that green?

I'll grant that if the player really wants a birdie they may want to get a little closer, which will bring on some risk (ie a narrower lay up area) but that's it isn't it? Would it be improved if they placed the tee so a larger number were thinking about getting home in two? They generally have an idea where the wind will come from ...

Jim, I watched all week and frankly many players were pysched out by the demands the hole presented. Hitting a second shot deeper into the neck is no bargain and requires as much skill as going for the green in two. The positioning of the water and the traps on the left side of the hole -- especially those in the neck area -- make a player have to really execute -- sure you can do deeper -- just don't push or pull the second shot and when facing a headwind that becomes even more challenging.

Jim, you make an assumption that more players would go for the green in two -- heck, the hole played at 552 yards -- that's not long by modern standards but even if that happened -- say reducing the hole to 500 yards -- the prospects of hitting and holding the green would not be easy and when the pin is flush to the right it 's no e-z matter either.

[JESII]

Agreed on the last part, it would not be easy...but I think a large majority would try, leading to 3's and 7's.

As to the rest, I think if you make the decision from the tee (as it is at 552) as to what score you need on the hole, a 4 or a 5, the second shot is already dictated. Another example where the par number on the card pulls players into certain risks they wouldn't otherwise take.

I wasn't saying it's anything other than a good, hard hole. Full of strategic decisions however, it is not...

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The hole is tough because you need to work the ball off the tee in the right area. Don't know if you have played the hole but getting your site lines in order is no e-z feat. The more you play left to get less distance for the 2nd shot -- you still then need to handle the water situation which pinches in from the right. Too many pros want to have a second short par-5 situation which is quite pedestrian -- that's not the case with the finale at The Champ.

Check out the scoring average for the week on the hole -- if I recall on Saturday the average was above 5.0 -- how many par-5's at 550 yards can do that ?

If you don't see the strategic calculations than you have never played the hole nor really paid attention to how the hole sliced and diced just about everyone save for CM last week.

[Matt_Ward]

Gary:

Sure, the tour pros would rather play BH and Doral -- who wants to get punched in the face by the tough final quartet at The Champ ?

In regards to marketing ploys -- so who cares what they name it. The simple fact is you have two par-3's which are quite challenging and a solid par-4 counterbalanced by a closing par-5 that far from a routine birdie hole by any stretch.

[SL_Solow]

Matt;  I think the real problem with this thread is the title.  It appears to suggest that the course is good because the pros shoot over par on the finishing stretch.  If the premise is hard = good, you lose me and many others.  It does not mean hard = bad; only that difficulty is just a part of the equation and once a certain threshold is reached, it becomes less and less important.  But as I read your later posts you suggest that the real reason you like this stretch of holes is that they present a variety of challenges which make for interesting golf.  I have not played the course and the television coverage was insufficient to allow me to make an independent judgment.  But now that I understand the basis of your attraction to the course I think I would like to see it when I visit SE Florida.  Then I'll see whether I agree.

[Jerry Kluger]

Okay Matt - you asked for it.  Take the water out of the picture and what strategy do you have left - NONE.  Even a dummy like me can design a tough Florida hole by putting water in play such that if you miss the shot there's no recovery.  Look at #17 on Sunday - boy was that exciting and interesting - the limited time I watched all the players hit the left side of the green or the bunker behind the left side when the hole location was on the right - great strategy to that hole.  Why don't we try Pine Tree or Seminole for good design down the street without the need for water to create difficulty by creating demanding and interesting angles and recovery shots.  Sure there is some water at ANGC but it involves much more imagination and shotmaking than what we see at the Champ.  #12 at ANGC's strength is not just the water - it is the depth of the green and the recovery shot if you miss the green - I would say the same thing about #13 and #15 where if you lay up you still can have quite a chore making par or better.  Oh yeah, I've played the course and tough it was but exciting or interesting - NO!

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