[Matthew Sander]

In the thread regarding design shenanigans, Carr Harris mentioned the 17th at Valderrama during the Ryder Cup. For the event they kept a swatch of rough in the fairway to reign in the drives and decrease the opportunity for reaching the green in two. I feel I'm accurate in saying that most of us would say this is a somewhat silly feature. At Valderrama it was only a temporary measure for the competition. However, I'm sure all of us have run into this situation on several occations.

When playing I try to use the attitude...play the course as is and don't bitch. However, since most feel this is an unnecessary and silly
feature (not to mention an easy fix; mow it), why does it persist? I guess a better question would be to ask; in what instances does this exist (if any) at very highly regarded courses? I understand that the majority of affordable public courses don't receive enough architectural scrutiny to effect change, but has this situation survived at at club where change is possible and encouraged? Thanks...

Matt

[Jason Topp]

I hate those things when they impede the tee shot.  I recall one person describing them as a "chastity belt."  17 at the Old Course has essentially had such a chastity belt the last couple of Open Championships.

On the 2nd shot of a par five, it can be an interesting hazard.  The 7th at Pine Valley sort of fits the description - even though it is unkempt land, rather than rough.  Number 15 at Royal Melbourne West also features such a strip, which can pose an interesting question to the player considering reaching the green in two.  Here is a picture looking back from the green:



Not the best hole on the course but not a bad one in my view.

[Rich Brittingham]

Congressional has a par 4 bisected by rough (can't remember the hole #....), granted its rough because there's a significant elevation drop between the 2 fairways, but it forces players into flirting with that rough and slope in order to keep a long iron out of there hands. 

[Eric Smith]

How about 15 at Aiken GC?  290ish par 4 with the last 50 yds or so as rough leading up to the green.  I loved the hole but would enjoy being able to run a tee shot all the way to the green.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If you ignore the fact that it's rough and you think heather or sandy waste, then a number of classic courses have this feature.... On most however, they are there to force a carry on the second shot as opposed to shorten the drive... equipment eh?

[Matthew Sander]

I hate those things when they impede the tee shot.  I recall one person describing them as a "chastity belt."  17 at the Old Course has essentially had such a chastity belt the last couple of Open Championships.

On the 2nd shot of a par five, it can be an interesting hazard.  The 7th at Pine Valley sort of fits the description - even though it is unkempt land, rather than rough.  Number 15 at Royal Melbourne West also features such a strip, which can pose an interesting question to the player considering reaching the green in two.  

Jason,

I agree that it is less bothersome when it is in play on a par 5's second shot rather than a tee shot because the strategy between the two shots differs somewhat. However, I feel that a perpendicular strip of primary rough seems sort of a half measure. While the strategic merits are nearly the same, I would prefer the use of an unkempt waste area similar to the Pine Valley transition area you mentioned, if for no other reason than visibility. I just think that the idea "let's grow some grass, that'll get 'em" is the weakest attempt at at cross hazard.

Congressional has a par 4 bisected by rough (can't remember the hole #....), granted its rough because there's a significant elevation drop between the 2 fairways, but it forces players into flirting with that rough and slope in order to keep a long iron out of there hands.  

Rich,

If I'm not mistaken, you could be describing the 9th at Congressional. I don't have much of a problem with this instance because of the sudden drop in elevation. It actually looks more natural. Regardless, most clubs wouldn't attempt to mow that slope. Although in a previous thread here, I saw some unreal fairway slopes at Greywalls that seemed to defy gravity.

How about 15 at Aiken GC?  290ish par 4 with the last 50 yds or so as rough leading up to the green.  I loved the hole but would enjoy being able to run a tee shot all the way to the green.

Eric,

It sounds like the intent for the hole was to be a drive and pitch hole no matter what. I'm not familiar with the history of Aiken, but is it possible that it was designed at at time when getting any closer than 40 or 50 yards seemed forever impossible? In your opinion would it be better played as a driveable 4 with an entrance or as it is, a drive and pitch?

Matt

[Carr Harris]

I almost mentioned Congressional. The year they hosted the Kemper when Avenel was being renovated (2005 I believe),
Vijay Singh tried to hit driver on the 3 yard wide strip of short grass used as a walking path between the two fairway sections ( I think it was 9 but could be mistaken). Thats a high percentage play for ya! 

[Eric Smith]

Matt,

I'm not sure.  On one hand it is a defense in place for a guy like me who wants to bang it up there.  On the other, with the fairway running out at 240 I'd need to hit a 3 iron or hybrid off the tee there because pitching out of that bermuda rough that extends beyong the fairway all the way to the green is a pretty difficult shot to manage, especially to THAT green.  The green is really cool, but difficult.  I'll go find Mayhugh's pictures on the Aiken thread in a bit...

[Tom_Doak]

I like those little bands of rough.  For one thing, they ought to save some money on the maintenance budget; for another, they ought to keep bad players honest by making them at least get the ball airborne with their second shots.  William Flynn was especially fond of dividing his fairways into two pieces like that, but over the years, a lot of them have been paved over with fairway.

The problem is where to put them, now that some guys can drive it 350+ yards and other players can't carry that with their two best.  Most of them have gone away for that reason, combined with the prevalence of multiple tees which may make long hitters lay up if they aren't playing the tips.

[Eric Smith]

15 at Aiken GC (photos from John Mayhugh's thread http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42132.35/ )














I don't know...after playing my first Coore/Crenshaw course recently I think I would love being able to run it up on here or putt it from 40 yds away.  The green has a rather pronounced ledge there on the left, though it's difficult to see it in the pics. Plus if you play too agressive to that lower ledge you see in that last pic what happens to your ball...down down underneath now in the bermuda rough!

I'm either way on the hole though, it was very memorable as is.

[Sean_A]

I don't mind the bands of rough so long as it is a pot luck draw from it - sort of like what rough should for the most part anyway.  I don't want to go in search of or hack out of long stuff.  Another thing with the pot luck theory is it is then okay to me if you get these bands on blind holes, narrow holes or whatever.  A good example is Sligo's 17th.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

I reckon if you've got to have them, at least make them sufficiently angled so at any length there is always some fairway, which at least leaves the golfer with a decision to make about his placement and weather to maybe fly it on the shorter side or roll as close as possible on the longer side.

[Pete_Pittock]

Hole #12 (The Long) at Moortown.  The crossing rough is about 260 out on a downhill hole. I was able to bounce it though via the walking path.

[Carl Rogers]

Isn't this feature just another cross hazard minus the sand?

[Ed Oden]

Congressional has a par 4 bisected by rough (can't remember the hole #....), granted its rough because there's a significant elevation drop between the 2 fairways, but it forces players into flirting with that rough and slope in order to keep a long iron out of there hands. 

Rich, you are thinking of #17 at Congressional (which was #16 before they built a new 10th and moved the old #17 to #18).  Here is a picture of the approach from the upper fairway...



The elevation drops maybe 10 feet or so down to the lower fairway beyond the rough.  At the AT&T I noticed that a few of the longest hitters were trying to reach lower fairway from the tee.

Ed

[Patrick_Mucci]

GCGC, Ridgewood, Plainfield.

Question, is this feature confined to par 5's where the band of rough lies between the DZ and the green ?

[Anthony Gray]

How about 15 at Aiken GC?  290ish par 4 with the last 50 yds or so as rough leading up to the green.  I loved the hole but would enjoy being able to run a tee shot all the way to the green.

  +1

[Matthew Sander]

GCGC, Ridgewood, Plainfield.

Question, is this feature confined to par 5's where the band of rough lies between the DZ and the green ?

My initial thoughts were regarding instances where it was in play on the drive (par 4 or 5). I agree with what Jason said earlier that they aren't quite as offputting when you're contemplating approaching a par 5 in 2 or laying up, but they still seem to me like an afterthought attempt at controlling distance and decisions. In many cases (not all) I am sure they are a literal afterthoght as they were not part of the original hole design and mainenance. I do understand that as far as cross hazards go they would be the cheapest and easiest to maintain. 

Congressional has a par 4 bisected by rough (can't remember the hole #....), granted its rough because there's a significant elevation drop between the 2 fairways, but it forces players into flirting with that rough and slope in order to keep a long iron out of there hands. 

Rich, you are thinking of #17 at Congressional (which was #16 before they built a new 10th and moved the old #17 to #18).  Here is a picture of the approach from the upper fairway...



The elevation drops maybe 10 feet or so down to the lower fairway beyond the rough.  At the AT&T I noticed that a few of the longest hitters were trying to reach lower fairway from the tee.

Ed

Ah I see, I thought Rich was talking about the ninth, where the fairway runs out and there is a steep drop of some 30 feet or so with bank of rough. Thanks for the clarification...

[Rich Brittingham]

Yeah thats the one, picture looks a bit different without the grandstands and TV tower that I think sits to the back left of the green during tourney time.  I feel like Sabbatini flipped "the bird" at a fan on this hole a few years back as he was walking off the green?  Pretty dramatic slope from back to front on that green if I remember correctly, thus penalizing players who dont flirt with the rough/slope because they will need to hit a longer iron. 

[Mike Cirba]

True North in northern Michigan (Jim Engh) has this feature on a few holes, most notably the 2nd.

I really don't care for it in practice much, but it is one of the architect's tools to use, hopefully with discretion.

Jim Blaukovitch's Riverview in Easton PA has it all over the place, as sort of an experimental feature, under the theory that high-handicappers play better with a little grass under their ball than from tight fairway lies.

[Scott Warren]

Jim Blaukovitch's Riverview in Easton PA has it all over the place, as sort of an experimental feature, under the theory that high-handicappers play better with a little grass under their ball than from tight fairway lies.

When I played TOC, on a hole referenced above, #17, a high-teens hcp playing partner and I both challenged the RHS off the tee and rounded the corner to see one ball in the fairway and another about a foot into the rough. "I won't lie, I hope that's me in the fairway," I told him, and he said: "Me too, the bloody fairways are too difficult to play off!"

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps I Just haven't played enough top notch courses...but most implementations I've seen of those rough strips in the fairway have been pretty cheezy/lame at best.  It almost always came down to the hole had no other defenses to speak of so they left a strip of rough in to add some difficulty if your tee ball went into it.

Not a big fan of them myself.

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