[Michael Blake]

Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

Exactly right.

[Wayne_Kozun]

It would be nice to see the all-in cost of carts done properly because I believe the costs are a lot more than what is normally considered.

Costs of carts include:
-substantial capital expenditures to build cart paths
-ongoing repaving/recurbing of cart paths - a substantial portion of the Greens budget at many clubs
-substantial capital cost for storage facility of carts
-cost of electricity to charge carts
-higher maintenance to repair cart damage
-higher wages to clean, charge, setup carts

But, unfortunately, the argument is moot since few golf clubs are willing to banish carts completely.  But when I make FU money and build my own golf course it will be walking only.

[Garland Bayley]

...Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

And exactly how do you know that? Have you a statistically valid survey that asked questions well enough to know what they want?

IMO you need to write so we know what you know, and when you are simply blowing air.

Ah Garland, more hot air of your own, this is what is known as "anecdotal evidence," and do you seriously think it's far off the mark?

I think it is far off the mark. I think it is the opinion of stuffed shirts that don't know which way is up.
If one were to believe "anecdotal evidence" then one would mindlessly buy the irons that a certain Golf Digest editor recently claimed went 30 yards farther than their equivalent of other technology. This after the USGA lets us know that the best golfers on the planet can only squeeze a few extra yards out of high COR drivers.

I keep telling you to think outside the box Bill.

Try it, it's fun. You can really piss people off in your blissful delusion. 

As far as hot air is concerned, you seem to blame vanity handicaps and sandbagger handicaps on your losses. Time to check your own temperature?

[Sean_A]

I am not sure what the debate is about. 

Of course carts are about business much more than they are about access to courses.

Of course carts make it easier for archies to create sloppy designed wow factor designs.

Of course carts made it easier to build housing golf.

Of course courses are being built in wild, wierd and wonderful places because of carts.

Of course there are those who need a cart to play, but they are a relatively small minority of cart users.  How do I know this?  Hardly anybody takes a cart in the UK and yet old folks still play.  How does that work?

Of course the cart doesn't bring in as much revenue as many think, but it is an important percentage for many operators to continue operating.

Of course I can't understand why private clubs don't allow members to walk without a caddie.   

Of course I don't understand why private clubs would depend on carts as a revenue source rather than an amenity for those willing to pay. 

Of course we shall never ween those off carts who don't want to be weened.

Of course I can't understand why it "isn't cool" to carry a few beers on the course.  So of course its okay by mean to ride with a few beers. 

Of course we should all be more tolerant of all sides of this debate/issue because golf is as much about choice as anything.  Don't like what you see?  Don't go back.

Ciao   

[Bill_McBride]

...Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

And exactly how do you know that? Have you a statistically valid survey that asked questions well enough to know what they want?

IMO you need to write so we know what you know, and when you are simply blowing air.

Ah Garland, more hot air of your own, this is what is known as "anecdotal evidence," and do you seriously think it's far off the mark?

I think it is far off the mark. I think it is the opinion of stuffed shirts that don't know which way is up.
If one were to believe "anecdotal evidence" then one would mindlessly buy the irons that a certain Golf Digest editor recently claimed went 30 yards farther than their equivalent of other technology. This after the USGA lets us know that the best golfers on the planet can only squeeze a few extra yards out of high COR drivers.

I keep telling you to think outside the box Bill.

Try it, it's fun. You can really piss people off in your blissful delusion. 

As far as hot air is concerned, you seem to blame vanity handicaps and sandbagger handicaps on your losses. Time to check your own temperature?

     When did I ever blame vanity handicaps for a loss?  And I haven't called you a sandbagger for a long time.

With regard to the cart riding culture, you are fortunate to live in a part of the country where walking is much more prevalent than most of the rest.  Walking on the gulf coast in mid-summer is a lot different than Oregon.  This in turn gets more people riding year round, it's a cultural thing.

[Jud_T]

Impact of Golf Carts? Well I wouldn't want to get hit by one of these....

[Richard Phinney]

 I personally dislike caddies and electric carts in equal measure.  No one has mentioned these motorized trolleys (pull carts) that are certainly quite popular here in Scotland. Are they a possible future compromise - can they be rented anywhere or do you have to own them?

[Tim Nugent]

Mr. Phinney, not sure on the electric ones but we had a bunch of older 'commercial grade' pull carts that we rented for $2.  When it was time to start replacing these, weexperimented with some high-end 3-wheel Sun Mountain pull carts.  Because they cost more, we charged $4 to rent.  More people were paying the $4 for the better trolleys, in fact, the number of walkers increased and the number of riders decreased.

Somewhere, trolley (pull carts) got a bad stigma associated with them.  This is the first place management should look to bolster.

It all boils down to culture.  In Finland, the owners asked "what's that squiggley line on the plan?"  "Cart Path" I replied.  "We don't think we'll have many of those" was there reply.  "Oh, then they are maintenance service paths".

[David Sneddon]

I personally dislike caddies and electric carts in equal measure.  No one has mentioned these motorized trolleys (pull carts) that are certainly quite popular here in Scotland. Are they a possible future compromise - can they be rented anywhere or do you have to own them?

I've always thought that they would provide an excellent alternative to the cart.  Lower initial capital cost, lower maintenance and easy on the turf.  I haven't seen any for rent on this side of the pond at any courses I've played, but perhaps others may have.

[SB]

...Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

And exactly how do you know that? Have you a statistically valid survey that asked questions well enough to know what they want?

IMO you need to write so we know what you know, and when you are simply blowing air.

Well, let's see.... 

For the past 15 years, I have been paid by a variety of people and companies to wake up, go into the office, and analyze the financial statements of golf courses, including those of municipal golf courses.  I don't have to survey people because I see on a daily basis what golfers are actually doing, not what they are saying.  I have looked at public, private, resort, high end, low end, you name it.  I have learned a decent amount in 15 years, much of it unrelated to cart usage patterns. 

And I never blow air, I don't have the time for the nonsense.

[Garland Bayley]

...Whether fat, lazy, drunk, stupid, or whatever, it is part of what golfers in the USA want, along with their beer and hot dog at the turn and their 4 1/2 hour round.

And exactly how do you know that? Have you a statistically valid survey that asked questions well enough to know what they want?

IMO you need to write so we know what you know, and when you are simply blowing air.

Well, let's see.... 

For the past 15 years, I have been paid by a variety of people and companies to wake up, go into the office, and analyze the financial statements of golf courses, including those of municipal golf courses.  I don't have to survey people because I see on a daily basis what golfers are actually doing, not what they are saying.  I have looked at public, private, resort, high end, low end, you name it.  I have learned a decent amount in 15 years, much of it unrelated to cart usage patterns. 

And I never blow air, I don't have the time for the nonsense.

And in the 60s you would have seen a lot of people doing the wearing of bell bottoms. What ingenious conclusion would you come to about that? That all they want to do is get up, put their bell bottoms on, and get on with their day?

[Mike Hamilton]

I personally dislike caddies and electric carts in equal measure.  No one has mentioned these motorized trolleys (pull carts) that are certainly quite popular here in Scotland. Are they a possible future compromise - can they be rented anywhere or do you have to own them?

I've always thought that they would provide an excellent alternative to the cart.  Lower initial capital cost, lower maintenance and easy on the turf.  I haven't seen any for rent on this side of the pond at any courses I've played, but perhaps others may have.

My earlier post suggested something akin to this and I think they are a great idea (although I've never tried one I have though about buying).  There is undoubtably a segment of golfers (especially in the US) who may be fat, lazy, drunks (or in their minds they just know how to have more fun than puritanical plodders ) who wouldn't walk if their life depended on it (and it might).  I also believe there is significant group of riders who would walk if it weren't for hauling the bag around.  That may be lazy...but for some it's due to back issues.

I think (without any sampling or statistics) that if the price structure at a golf course was: Walking $40; w/Cart $55; w/Caddie $55...a lot more people would choose to walk with the caddie, but again the numbers won't work (regardless if the cart economics have been thought out or not).  I know from my own experience of encourging playing partners to walk that a big objection is the bag.

Maybe the motorized trolleys are ultimately a good economic middle ground.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I am horrified when I see aerials of courses in housing estates with 300 yard drives between houses to get to the next hole surrounded by yet more condos. Without carts these places would never get built.

  Most of those people in those houses are golfers.

Not true.  I've read that the % of people who live in golf course communities who actually play golf is around 30%.

[Gary Slatter]

 :)lots of "opinions" on carts!
Perry Dyes statement was accurate, fewer juniors are caddying,  however there are more juniors getting introduced to the game now.
Jim Kennedy's statement is not necessarily true, there are more kids "playing" golf now, maybe not at private clubs.

I was an assistant at St George's in the late 60s when the club had a great caddy program.  We ran into trouble when a member of the press wrote a nasty article about how we were not paying minimum wages etc.  Not sure if any lawsuits happened but a lot of great kids no longer had a place to make some money, play some golf, have their first smoke, maybe a first shot of screech, walk the fairways with CEOs.

Carts will always be better money-makers than any caddie program. 
Turf damage from carts is minimal if properly managed.  Most course damage that I see is caused by turf equipment that could often use cart paths if they were available.

GCA is perfect, everyone gets to express their OPINION.   That doesn't make any of us right!  Just makes it easier for me to decide who I'll ever try to play golf with. 
People choose to ride when they golf, they get their exercise in the gym before or after, if they choose.
People choose to walk too, great, your vacations at Bandon will be perfect.  Some can go to Doral and ride, it's warmer.

[David Sneddon]

I personally dislike caddies and electric carts in equal measure.  No one has mentioned these motorized trolleys (pull carts) that are certainly quite popular here in Scotland. Are they a possible future compromise - can they be rented anywhere or do you have to own them?

I've always thought that they would provide an excellent alternative to the cart.  Lower initial capital cost, lower maintenance and easy on the turf.  I haven't seen any for rent on this side of the pond at any courses I've played, but perhaps others may have.

My earlier post suggested something akin to this and I think they are a great idea (although I've never tried one I have though about buying).  There is undoubtably a segment of golfers (especially in the US) who may be fat, lazy, drunks (or in their minds they just know how to have more fun than puritanical plodders ) who wouldn't walk if their life depended on it (and it might).  I also believe there is significant group of riders who would walk if it weren't for hauling the bag around.  That may be lazy...but for some it's due to back issues.

I think (without any sampling or statistics) that if the price structure at a golf course was: Walking $40; w/Cart $55; w/Caddie $55...a lot more people would choose to walk with the caddie, but again the numbers won't work (regardless if the cart economics have been thought out or not).  I know from my own experience of encourging playing partners to walk that a big objection is the bag.

Maybe the motorized trolleys are ultimately a good economic middle ground.

I used on for a season, I'd pulled a groin muscle the year before and "no carrying" was the Dr's orders.  Cruden Bay and Crail had them for rent, (15GBP for the day, IIRC) and i had tried them there previously.

For someone with back problems, or just a big bag, they are an excellent method of getting around the course on foot.

Nowadays you can buy them from around $400 - $2k depending on manufacturer and options.

Agree with your, 'a good economic middle ground'

[Rob Rigg]

The biggest impact of golf carts is that many young kids are missing out on "golf" - ie) the full golf experience.

That is what saddens me more than anything else - they think that "cart golf" is the full experience because driving around is "cool" and "fun".

I think it is a place like Bandon Dunes that can "enlighten" many American golfers as to the many benefits of playing this game on foot.

I receive emails from people quite often discussing their "battles" with committees at their clubs who will not let people use a push cart - now that is ridiculous - ie) caddie or carts only. The rules that we seem to make up to minimize enjoyment of this great game in the US is beyond frustrating. And it will continue to stymie its growth here until people start "thinking" for themselves and demanding the right to carry or push a cart when they play.

At a minimum - golfers should have a choice whether to walk or ride a course that is walkable (unless it is walking only except for people with medical reasons to ride).

Sadly, most kids in China and other Asian countries will never know "golf" because it was never really introduced in their country - they will only know "cart golf".

Most golfers don't need a motorized cart, or a caddie, and most golfers don't need 14 clubs, a rangefinder, 2 dozen golf balls, an umbrella, etc. in their bag - it is a lot easier to carry 15 lbs than 30 lbs. Just enjoy the walk, get creative and have fun - something American kids would probably be able to get into.

[Bill_McBride]

:)lots of "opinions" on carts!
Perry Dyes statement was accurate, fewer juniors are caddying,  however there are more juniors getting introduced to the game now.
Jim Kennedy's statement is not necessarily true, there are more kids "playing" golf now, maybe not at private clubs.

I was an assistant at St George's in the late 60s when the club had a great caddy program.  We ran into trouble when a member of the press wrote a nasty article about how we were not paying minimum wages etc.  Not sure if any lawsuits happened but a lot of great kids no longer had a place to make some money, play some golf, have their first smoke, maybe a first shot of screech, walk the fairways with CEOs.

Carts will always be better money-makers than any caddie program. 
Turf damage from carts is minimal if properly managed.  Most course damage that I see is caused by turf equipment that could often use cart paths if they were available.

GCA is perfect, everyone gets to express their OPINION.   That doesn't make any of us right!  Just makes it easier for me to decide who I'll ever try to play golf with. 
People choose to ride when they golf, they get their exercise in the gym before or after, if they choose.
People choose to walk too, great, your vacations at Bandon will be perfect.  Some can go to Doral and ride, it's warmer.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but that is far too reasonable an attitude to take on this board and on this question.   

[Garland Bayley]

...
     When did I ever blame vanity handicaps for a loss?  And I haven't called you a sandbagger for a long time.
...

You posted about being paired up with vanity handicaps at your club for matches that lost you money.

Makes one wonder what "the rest of the story" is.

[Bill_McBride]

...
     When did I ever blame vanity handicaps for a loss?  And I haven't called you a sandbagger for a long time.
...

You posted about being paired up with vanity handicaps at your club for matches that lost you money.

Makes one wonder what "the rest of the story" is.

Well what am I supposed to do about that situation?  A four ball partner is what he is, no way I can control anything about his handicap. 

What could you possibly mean by "the rest of the story?"

Keeping track of my past posts, are you stalking me?   

[Garland Bayley]

...
Keeping track of my past posts, are you stalking me?   

You divorce me by saying you won't ever respond to my "wordsmithing" posts again, which is fine, because it allows me to blissfully ignore your posts. Then you come on the board and respond to one of my posts by saying I'm full of hot air. Who's stalking who?

Besides, it's not stalking. It's called memory. Something you probably had before turning old.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Impact of golf carts … Allows more idiots on a golf course, more unsuitable sites to be chosen, increases blood pressure and bloody cart paths which are never hidden from view.

Melvyn

[JMEvensky]

I receive emails from people quite often discussing their "battles" with committees at their clubs who will not let people use a push cart - now that is ridiculous - ie) caddie or carts only. The rules that we seem to make up to minimize enjoyment of this great game in the US is beyond frustrating. And it will continue to stymie its growth here until people start "thinking" for themselves and demanding the right to carry or push a cart when they play.

I generally agree with your entire post--especially the part about juniors.This paragraph,however,is not quite so cut and dried.

For a lot of reasons,clubs have become dependent on cart revenue.Frequently,entire budgets are drawn based on the number of carts rented per year.Altering that number has a lot of ramifications--most of them bad.

I agree that members should always be able to walk.The problem is convincing the rest of the membership that walking is an inalienable right-irrespective of lost revenue.It's frequently a difficult battle to win.

[Bill_McBride]

...
Keeping track of my past posts, are you stalking me?   

You divorce me by saying you won't ever respond to my "wordsmithing" posts again, which is fine, because it allows me to blissfully ignore your posts. Then you come on the board and respond to one of my posts by saying I'm full of hot air. Who's stalking who?

Besides, it's not stalking. It's called memory. Something you probably had before turning old.

Well imagine this, I divorce thee again.

[Rob Rigg]

JME,

I understand the situation that some clubs are in - and it is hardly realistic to expect a club do go under because they cannot sustain cart revenue. This is not black and white from a financial standpoint.

But, in an ideal world, I cannot understand why a club would not allow their members to walk.

Maybe not right now things need to remain status quo (I certainly hope not), but in the future, I hope that clubs that are financially dependent on cart revenue or trail fees or whatever find a way to allow their members to choose between walking and riding 24/7.

At the end of the day, walking is better for you physically and mentally, a healthy member is a member who will be paying dues farther into the future and that has to be good for the club.

I did not intend to "poo poo" caddie programs above - I think they are wonderful and I really enjoyed caddying growing up - but I think "forcing" members to take caddies can create animosity against walking that should not exist.

I wonder if it would be possible for a club to employ "high school" aged caddies and pay them an hourly wage - ie) if they are not caddying then they are picking up balls on the range or cleaning clubs. This would lead to better cash flow and both parties would probably get more for their money? It would also open up that "junior introduction" to golf that is so needed.

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