[Dennis Harwood]

Churm publishing(OC Golf, SD Golf, LA Golf) has just published its "rating" of southern California's "top ten"(together with a best of the rest listing)--

It apparently consulted a "number of experts" in making up its lists(and its exclusive interview with Tom Fazio may have had some influence)---

Here it is, in reverse order:

No 10-Bear Creek

N0 9 La Purisima

No 8 The Valley Club

No 7 The Reserve

No 6  Rancho Santa Fe

No 5 Pauma Valley

No 4 Torrey Pines South

No 3 L A North

No 2 Riviera

NO 1--PELICAN HILL(it does not distinguish between North and South so I guess the two courses are 1 and 1A)

Their best private list(alphabetical):

Bel-Air,Big Canyon, Bridges,Crosby National, El Caballero, La Jolla, Plantation, Sherwood, Shady Canyon, Tradition, Vintage.

Their best public and resort: Aviara, Ojai Valley, Temecula Creek, Monarch Beach, [Munis)Rio Hondo, Black Gold, Brookside, Griffith Park, Los Verdes, Torrey North, Mile Square, Rec Park.

Their best "new" list:  Barona, Cross Creek, Eagle Glen, Goose Creek, Lost Canyons, Oak Quarry, Ocean Trails, PGA Club of SC, Robinson Ranch, Shawdow Ridge, Talega, Strawberry Farms--

[David Kelly]

They list courses from counties other than LA, OC and SD, so where are the courses in the Palm Springs area? I guess they don't purchase advertising space in the Churm publications.

[Dennis Harwood]

No David, they list a number of Palm Desert(and Santa Barbara courses)--

The Preserve is in their top 10 and Vintage, Plantation, Shadow Ridge, Tradition make their list from Palm Desert/The Valley--

The Valley Club, Sherwood, La Purisma, Ojai make it from Santa Barbara/Ventura counties

That is not to say I agree with their ratings, AT ALL!!

[Dennis Harwood]

I said "Preserve"--I meant Reserve!!

[A_Clay_Man]

Dennis- You really put a smile on my face with this one.

I hope this isn;'t an April fools joke.  

I can hear Tommy from here.  

[Dennis Harwood]

Not a joke--

There is more--After each selection they indicate a "why they picked it" statement--

For Pelican they state "Its the Crown Jewel of Orange County Golf for many years" because of the location "Set on bluffs overlooking the Pacific Ocean, there are few vantage points as stunningly beautiful as Pelican Hill's home."

Then they state that "a golf course is more than an envirnmental setting, and its the playablitiy of Pelican Hills two golf course that make it a great facility.  But you get great views from every hole on both courses"--

And the best of all is why they picked Riviera--"The course is unchanged for 77 years" said Head Professional Todd Yoshitake, "When I'm hitting shots I feel like I'm playing against Hogan and Nelson. Its the same course they played."

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Wow.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And here is the exact reason why I don't write for Orange County golf anymore.

Thanks Dennis, this list is hilarious. Mind you that when i was wirting for the magazine, I was always told that Pelican Hill IS the best because they spend the most money with the magazine and "We want to be known as the Good Guys!

Actually, I'm surprized Tustin Ranch didn't make the list. After all, last summer they voted Ted Robinson the best golf course designer in the game today. (truth)

[Daniel Wexler]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade (because, as the above-quoted excerpts indicate, the article is the usual PR-driven nonsense) but if you read closely, it does say:

"And here's our list of the greatest golf courses in Southern California, in no particular order".....

[Dennis_Harwood]

Yes, but then the  cover says something like: " Southern Cals top 10. Pelican Hills heads the list"( I don't have the publication here).

[Matt_Cohn]

Dennis,

What are your thoughts on #'s 2-10? To me - and of course it's not perfect - but it actually seems somewhat good. I am a big fan of PGA West Stadium, so if they were including desert courses, I think that's a major omission. I know not everyone here will agree with me! Whether or not Pelican should be #1, I like that course too, just as far as being a beautiful place to spend a day.

Overall though, the list seems pretty good, including courses like RSF. What do you think?

[David Wigler]

When the major earthquake finally hits and Southern California falls into the ocean, I am fairly certain that Churm Publishing will not be missed.  

[Dennis_Harwood (Guest)]

What are your thoughts on #'s 2-10? To me - and of course it's not perfect - but it actually seems somewhat good. I am a big fan of PGA West Stadium, so if they were including desert courses, I think that's a major omission. I know not everyone here will agree with me! Whether or not Pelican should be #1, I like that course too, just as far as being a beautiful place to spend a day.

Overall though, the list seems pretty good, including courses like RSF. What do you think?


Matt-- I think they are in to "scenic" much more than "good course"--  In there top ten I don't thnk Pelican belongs and The Reserve is not, in my opinion, in the top 5 in the desert, much less the "best" in the desert--  Pauma Valley is a "nice" course, but not deserving, IMHO, of a top ten rating--  I do love Rancho Santa Fe, and believe it does belong, although it is often overlooked--

Riveria, LA North, THe Valley Club are givens and you can make a good case that Torrey, La Purisima and Bear Creek belong(you can also make a case that those three don't belong)--

[THuckaby2]

This list is "interesting" to me to say the least.

At any rate, great call re Rancho Santa Fe GC, Dennis.  I had the good fortune to play there a few months ago and I was VERY impressed.  What a grand old course that is... unbelievably great greens.  That belongs on any SoCal AND overall state list most definitely.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dennis, Didn't you once tell me that you DIDN'T like PGA West Stadium? ? ? ?

Another private club accessed by the Huckster. I don't want to hear anymore about you being just a pub links guy.

[Robert Hertzing]

I agree that all courses on the list are good courses. Question is should Valencia Country Club be included on the list. It has now hosted a PGA tour event and two Senior PGA tour event with all events getting great reviews from the players. I personally think it is a great course, what do you all from Socal think?

[Paul Richards]

Dennis:

That list is hard to decipher.  What was the motive for such
a radical listing?  An interview with Fazio or what??

[THuckaby2]

Tommy, I would say something about a pot and a kettle and the color black but.... let's just say I do have a lot of friends and I'm very lucky!  

I was seriously astounded at how cool RSF is.  What a great course.  Very lucky indeed to see the inside of that one!

TH

[Dennis_Harwood (Guest)]

Tommy--Thats exactly what I said--and I still say it--I think you saw Matt's quote(not mine) which I included in my response to Matt--(It was Matt that praised PGA, not me)

Re PGA Stadium--It is fun to play, but in my opinion it is devoid of strategy-- Target golf at the extreme-- I would still rather play it than the Reserve, however.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Never once have I ever exponded on being a lowly public course golfer*. Not like some people I know!:)

(I have been very fortunate to see the architecture at a lot of golf courses.)

Sorry for the misread Dennis.

[Dennis_Harwood]

The same publication got a lengthy interview with Tom Fazio--Which raised some interesting points(more below)--

The preamble to the interview praised Tom's work in SoCal and without expressly saying so infered that Pelican was his finest work in the area--  I think that is part of the reason--

So of the others on the top ten list made little sense, unless you use "Scenic" as the test( or at least 2/3rds of the test of what makes the "best" course)--

Some of Tom's more interesting comments:

(1) Golf courses should be changed because equiment changes have made it a different game--You must either change the equipment--which is not going to happen--or change the courses.

(2) In SoCal he is real fan of Bel-Air but also likes Riviera and LACC--He likes courses that feel as if you "are stepping into history"(Ed--does that conflict with point #1?)

(3) Pine Valley and Cypress Point are his favorite courses

(4) Finest ground he had to develope a course on--Pelican Hill(with Shady Canyon also great)--Worst ground--Shadow Creek

(5) Most drastic change for the next ten years--Courses can be built the same way greens are built today--You can control the conditions re drainage, moisure, temp, etc

(6) He is very, very proud of Pelican.

(now that I've written it this probably should have been a different thread, but I don't know how to do that)

[THuckaby2]

Oh Emperor, I beseech thee to forgive my hubris!  

I too have been fortunate to see a lot of golf courses.  I doubt I saw the "architecture" at many of them, but I played.  And I do not forget how lucky I am.

I am however, a member of no private club, never have been, never will be, not here in NorCal anyway - I can't imagine ever having the means to afford six-figure initiation fees.

Thus I remain a lowly public course golfer.

I am also America's Guest, and VERY appreciative and grateful to all of those through whom I received this title.

It's a tough life but someone has to do it!  

TH

ps - you might be interested in this... read all the way through:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/sports/2996465.htm

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