[Tim Martin]

Ben: Inadvertently got cut-off. Here's the remainder of my responses ...

No.  What you meant to say was that there were folks who didn't like Tiger.  To say that he was never loved by many is a gross mischaracterization.

BEN, TIGER HAS SHOWN A BLOW-OFF ATTITUDE TO MANY PEOPLE - MANY NOW SAW THIS SITUATION HAS PRESENTED THE ULTIMATE COMEUPPANCE FOR THEM. WHEN TIGER PLAYS -- PEOPLE LOVE LEFTY -- THEY RESPECT TIGER FOR HIS GAME.   

Good for you Matt.  I live in a world where character still matters.  Where the decisions you make impact EVERY facet of what you do and who you are.  I want my children to live in a world like that as well.  I want them to have heroes.  To look up to people and things that are amazing.  I want people with God given talent to give back, to understand their worth, and not cheapen it.  Shame on me for feeling this way.

BEN, ENOUGH OF THE MORALIZING PITTER PATTER. I ALMOST BROKE OUT A KLEENEX. TIGER HAS PLAYED THE GAME IN GREAT FASHION -- HE IS RESPECTED FOR THAT DIMENSION AND IF YOU EXPECT THEM TO BE THE WALKING EPITOME OF THE NON-FLAWED HUMAN BEING THENYOU ARE SIPPING SOME REALLY STRONG KOOL-AID -- WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.

He didn't.  He lives in a world of instant communication and instant news.  A time of equal right AND expectations of men and women.  A world where our most powerful and successful are held under a microscope of atomic detail.  He KNEW that.  Period. 

BEN, BABE RUTH IS REMEMBERED FOR HIS BASEBALL SKILLS -- PEOPLE NOW SEE WHAT HE IS LIKE OFF THE DIAMOND AND HE STILL COMMANDS TIOP TIER RESPECT. THE SAME WILL BE FOR TIGER WHEN HE RETURNS TO THE COURSE AND THE WINNING RESUMES. MICKEY MANTLE IS REVERED BY MANY ADULTS TODAY -- THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WERE KIDS BACK THEN. HIS CAROUSING AND DRINKING DIDN'T LOWER HIS STOCK IN THEIR MINDS. THE MEDIA TODAY PLAYS THE GAME OF BUILDING UP PEOPLE TO SUPER HUMAN PROPORTIONS AND THEN WHEN THE SLIGHTEST CRACK IS REVLEAED PILE ON WITH UNRELENTING VIGOR -- THE SAME WILL BE FOR THE RESUIRRECTION PIECES THAT WILL FOLLOW.

Matt-The difference between Tiger and Babe Ruth,Mickey Mantle And Sinatra is that the latter three never tried to hide who they were. They were accepted as guys with less than perfect moral and social graces because those qualities were out there for all to see. Many routed even harder for them because they had flaws. Granted that certain things came to light about all of them after they died but it was just more of the same. Tiger and his machine crafted an image that couldn`t have been farther from the truth. Could there be a bigger scam than that picture of him, Elin, the kids and the dog. Come on. I love to watch Tiger play golf and what he has accomplished as a golfer. As far as him being a good guy I can`t say the same.

[Richard Choi]

Here is what I take from Dan Jenkin's article...

Palmer and others were great since they gave ME complete access, even though Palmer was known as a "ladies man" with constant women around his arms (that was not his wife Winnie) during his popular years.

But Tiger is terrible because while doing his philandering, he didn't give ME the same level of access - what an a-hole!

I would say Dan Jenkins is taking the same approach all other media types are taking - you should do everything I tell you to do from now on, starting with giving me complete access to your private life so I can sell my rags and I can become richer off of you.

Pretty sad...

[TEPaul]

"Did JFK feel as if he was entitled?  Are we entitled to know?  I would like to think we judge people like JFK and Tiger Woods on how they do their job...that being the point where we the public (I'll leave it to their girlfriends to decide how well they performed in the sack) interact with them."


Craig:

Good questions. I didn't know JFK at all (even though one of the closest calls I ever had in a car without actually having an accident involved JFK---and he was the president at the time) but having known a bunch of the Kennedy family and their in-laws I might say they probably thought of things far beyond the concept of whether they were "entitled" to something. I have known a whole lot of very powerful families in my time and I must admit I've never seen one in that way quite like the Kennedy clan. I'm not saying I didn't like them but they really were amazing that way.

Are we entitled to know? I don't really think so unless and until something comes up with say a president like JFK that really could jeopardize national security or whatever and for that I'd pretty much go with those who deal with that sort of thing like J. Edgar Hoover did. Have you ever seen that photograph of JFK and J. Edgar Hoover in the Oval Office? Apparently he was telling JFK that it might be a good idea if he severed his affair with Judith Campbell Exner who was also having an affair with Sam Giancana, the Don of the Chicago mob. Look at the expression of JFK's face----it's very interesting. He may've been personally reckless in many ways but he wasn't dumb, that's for sure.  

[Tim Martin]

Here is what I take from Dan Jenkin's article...

Palmer and others were great since they gave ME complete access, even though Palmer was known as a "ladies man" with constant women around his arms (that was not his wife Winnie) during his popular years.

But Tiger is terrible because while doing his philandering, he didn't give ME the same level of access - what an a-hole!

I would say Dan Jenkins is taking the same approach all other media types are taking - you should do everything I tell you to do from now on, starting with giving me complete access to your private life so I can sell my rags and I can become richer off of you.

Pretty sad...

Rich- I don`t think Dan Jenkins called Tiger terrible,just full of shit. The truth hurts.

[JSlonis]

Team Tiger told the world that the reason they did their little announcement production in Florida and conflicted with the Match Play was that it was the only time it fit into Tiger's rehab schedule.

Now, here he is - not even two weeks later - with enough idle time on his hands to be practicing at home in Florida.

Hmmm....

Shiv,

Sadly, I thought the same...can't help but think Tiger was trying to jam one on Accenture after dropping him.  I guess some things will never change. 

How did his "apology" affect Accenture and the Match Play tourney at all?  I don't think he was trying to stick it to them.  Really, what is there to stick?

If anything, it got more people talking about his former sponsor than would have ever have talked about them if he remained silent that week.  There was more coverage of the players and the tourney that week because of Tiger.  Without Tiger and Phil in the field and a slew of foreign born players in the mix, was the general golf public all that tuned in anyway?  I don't think so.

It seemed to me that all the huff by a couple players was much ado about nothing.

[Sean Leary]

"They never pretended to be the All-American Daddy-Pop Father of the Year Who Also Wins Golf Tournaments. They never sold themselves as the greatest Family Values brand ever, and conquered the marketplace with it, shamelessly scooping up hundreds of millions of dollars while saying, "My family will always come first."

I am not sure I agree with this part of his take on this.  About Palmer and Nicklaus, anyway.....

[Mike Benham]

The sign were there, the rules did not apply to him can be seen but his language and worst still his club throwing antics.   

Melvyn was right all along ...

[PThomas]

"They never pretended to be the All-American Daddy-Pop Father of the Year Who Also Wins Golf Tournaments. They never sold themselves as the greatest Family Values brand ever, and conquered the marketplace with it, shamelessly scooping up hundreds of millions of dollars while saying, "My family will always come first."

I am not sure I agree with this part of his take on this.  About Palmer and Nicklaus, anyway.....

maybe for Jack it was...but by all accounts hasnt Jack been a good dad??  Jack has his flaws but i dont recall any bad examples of his parenthood

[Michael Dugger]

"They never pretended to be the All-American Daddy-Pop Father of the Year Who Also Wins Golf Tournaments. They never sold themselves as the greatest Family Values brand ever, and conquered the marketplace with it, shamelessly scooping up hundreds of millions of dollars while saying, "My family will always come first."

I am not sure I agree with this part of his take on this.  About Palmer and Nicklaus, anyway.....

I tend to agree with you on this point, Sean.  It was well-known while in college Tiger loved a good game of poker with his crew.  The word on tour was that he was quite fond of filthy jokes and lewd comments.

And while I don't know diddly squat about Elin personally, I highly doubt he married her for the brains.  Duh people...

It's somewhat perplexing to ponder where this idea that Tiger was this great guy with all these family values even began.  I surely never thought that way......the only thing that's surprising about this whole ordeal is that he didn't have Elin a little more figured out.  I.E. Give her what she wants to maintain the image.  I.E.x2  lovers on the side if she wishes, etc...   

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

A little bit of correction here -- Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle and Sinatra (to a lesser extent) were protected by media people and even with all that protection -- they had their fair share of people who didn't really like them -- save for the likes of Mantle who is revered by many adults in their 50's and 60's now -- they were kids then when he was playing in his prime.

My point is a simple one -- when we NOW know who Ruth, Mantle and Sinatra were then -- they are still feasted quite rightly for the skills they showed in their prime pursuit -- whether it be sports or in singing like Ole Blue Eyes. I could give a rats *ss about what these people do off the fields. I hold my highest opinions for people of standing that really help society out in other ways -- I mentioned great teachers, police and other first responders, etc, etc. When people gush about character and think athletes have to be on the same plane as the Pope or Mother Theresa I start rolling with laughter. These are sportsmen -- entertainers. My covenant with any of them is to be entertained -- they do that. What they do outside that area of emphasis has little, if any, interest to me.

Tim, you seem to misunderstand or don't comprehend the fact -- Tiger's team can shape whatever it is they wanted to shape -- the people who bought into the image are the same ones throwing him under the bus now and guess what partner -- these will be the same people who play up the resurrection articles when Tiger does eventually return to the scene.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard C:

Well said ... amazing how certain media people feel entitled to get what they need and to extract their own pound of flesh when told otherwise.

[Tim Martin]

Tim:

A little bit of correction here -- Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle and Sinatra (to a lesser extent) were protected by media people and even with all that protection -- they had their fair share of people who didn't really like them -- save for the likes of Mantle who is revered by many adults in their 50's and 60's now -- they were kids then when he was playing in his prime.

My point is a simple one -- when we NOW know who Ruth, Mantle and Sinatra were then -- they are still feasted quite rightly for the skills they showed in their prime pursuit -- whether it be sports or in singing like Ole Blue Eyes. I could give a rats *ss about what these people do off the fields. I hold my highest opinions for people of standing that really help society out in other ways -- I mentioned great teachers, police and other first responders, etc, etc. When people gush about character and think athletes have to be on the same plane as the Pope or Mother Theresa I start rolling with laughter. These are sportsmen -- entertainers. My covenant with any of them is to be entertained -- they do that. What they do outside that area of emphasis has little, if any, interest to me.

Tim, you seem to misunderstand or don't comprehend the fact -- Tiger's team can shape whatever it is they wanted to shape -- the people who bought into the image are the same ones throwing him under the bus now and guess what partner -- these will be the same people who play up the resurrection articles when Tiger does eventually return to the scene.

Matt-From what I read the only people in your world that need to carry themslves with grace, class and humanity are hero types. The guys that continue to say who cares what Tiger does off the course scare me with "he`s only a golfer"defense and the twisted logic they stand behind. As far as me not comprehending Tiger`s right of him and his handlers to shape his image I disagree. He is the greatest golfer on the planet and people have the right to care about the way he acts and carries himself. Especially when the carefully crafted image is BS. Didn`t Earl Woods say Tiger would change the world and have a much more far reaching effect than just golf?, I don`t remember any of his peeps disagreeing. Saying you could give a rats ass what he does off the course is the easy way out.

[Craig Sweet]

Tim....If Tiger were the greatest bulldozer operator in the world, or the worlds greatest astrophysicist, would you have the right to care about the way he acts and carries himself? 

[Ben Sims]

Matt & "Box" Choi,

You know guys, the worst thing about this entire situation?  You're both mostly correct.  Now before I go all Appomattox and surrender to you two yankees , I'll say this. 

I don't agree with any of it.  You're right Matt.  Tiger will return, be beloved by many (not all) for his prowess.  He'll garner more respect than ever as a rising phoenix.  And Rich, yeah, this Jenkins guy does seem happy to stick to Tiger after a few years of media respect issues.  But it chaps my ass.  Like Tim says, why shouldn't we expect decency and honor of our premier celebs and athletes.  They will be the names in the  history books as the most prominent in our society. 

Maybe it bears witness to study how the most popular president and athlete of the past twenty-five years were both philanderers. 

[Tim Martin]

Tim....If Tiger were the greatest bulldozer operator in the world, or the worlds greatest astrophysicist, would you have the right to care about the way he acts and carries himself? 

Craig-My son plays junior golf and was a huge fan of Tiger. Not just the golfer but the guy. He asked me a number of questions about the situation and I answered them as honestly and tactfully as I could. He watched the golf channel, read articles on the internet and talked to his friends. He still thinks Tiger is a great golfer but not such a great guy. I don`t understand why I and others can`t have an opinion or care about Tiger`s transgressions or any other subject. Thats what makes the world go round. Without different opinions there is no GCA. Finally, I don`t get the bulldozer analogy. Lets agree to disagree.

[Sean Leary]

"They never pretended to be the All-American Daddy-Pop Father of the Year Who Also Wins Golf Tournaments. They never sold themselves as the greatest Family Values brand ever, and conquered the marketplace with it, shamelessly scooping up hundreds of millions of dollars while saying, "My family will always come first."

I am not sure I agree with this part of his take on this.  About Palmer and Nicklaus, anyway.....

maybe for Jack it was...but by all accounts hasnt Jack been a good dad??  Jack has his flaws but i dont recall any bad examples of his parenthood

Paul,

How do you know what his home life has been like? How do you know he didn't have issues too..?

You don't.

[Sean Leary]

"They never pretended to be the All-American Daddy-Pop Father of the Year Who Also Wins Golf Tournaments. They never sold themselves as the greatest Family Values brand ever, and conquered the marketplace with it, shamelessly scooping up hundreds of millions of dollars while saying, "My family will always come first."

I am not sure I agree with this part of his take on this.  About Palmer and Nicklaus, anyway.....

I tend to agree with you on this point, Sean.  It was well-known while in college Tiger loved a good game of poker with his crew.  The word on tour was that he was quite fond of filthy jokes and lewd comments.

And while I don't know diddly squat about Elin personally, I highly doubt he married her for the brains.  Duh people...

It's somewhat perplexing to ponder where this idea that Tiger was this great guy with all these family values even began.  I surely never thought that way......the only thing that's surprising about this whole ordeal is that he didn't have Elin a little more figured out.  I.E. Give her what she wants to maintain the image.  I.E.x2  lovers on the side if she wishes, etc...   

I agree. Companies were NOT paying Tiger because he was a great family man. Mickelson's image plays the family man ideal up 1000 times more than Tigers ever did.

I met one of Tiger's "girls" years ago before he was married. She was one of a few who were his "regulars". Maybe because of that, I was less surprised than most.

[Will MacEwen]

Sean,

Tiger's image may not have been that of a great family man, but it was more than just being the greatest golfer.  Success, discipline, focus, committment - I would say that was the Tiger brand, and that is why he was so appealing to companies like Accenture, Gillette, and why they were among the first to dump him.  The speech at Ponte Vedra was, in my opinion, about restoring the broader appeal of his brand.

He was portrayed as a guy with no loose ends, when in fact he was kind of a mess.

[Sean Leary]

Will,

I agree completely. But they were not emphasizing the family man image. Perhaps it was assumed with the perfection they implied but they did not push that part of him on us.

[Will MacEwen]

Will,

I agree completely. But they were not emphasizing the family man image. Perhaps it was assumed with the perfection they implied but they did not push that part of him on us.

My wife doesn't follow golf, but was shocked.  She didn't think of him as a great family man per se, but as a guy who had everything together, nothing but hard work, perfectionist, etc.  Ads like "there are no rainy days" certainly played into that.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Let me break down your response to me ...

Here's what you said -- my response is in CAPS -- not for emphasis -- just for differentiation.

Matt-From what I read the only people in your world that need to carry themslves with grace, class and humanity are hero types.
TIM, TOO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SUCKED INTO THE MYTH THAT ALL SPORTSMEN NEED TO BE FREE OF SIN AND ARE THE EMBODIMENT OF WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE. LET'S GET REAL - OK. THESE FOLKS PLAY A SPORT -- THEY ENTERTAIN. THEY DON'T HELP CURE CANCER -- OR STOP THE BAD PEOPLE THAT CAN HURT US. THEY ARE A DIVERSION -- PURE AND SIMPLE.

The guys that continue to say who cares what Tiger does off the course scare me with "he`s only a golfer"defense and the twisted logic they stand behind.
TIM, WHAT'S SO 'TWISTED?' I CAN'T HELP YOU AND OTHERS WERE ALLOWED TO GET SUCKED INTO THE MADISON AVE HYPE THAT MAKES PEOPLE LIKE TIGER AND OTHERS SEEN SO ABOVE ALL OTHERS. THESE FOLKS PUT THEIR PANTS ON JUST LIKE YOU AND ME. TIGER IS AN ENTERTAINER ... HE IS THERE TO PUT PEOPLE ON THE COURSE AND IN FRONT OF THE TV SET.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Got cut off from the rest ...

As far as me not comprehending Tiger`s right of him and his handlers to shape his image I disagree.
TIM, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT - TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY AND ABROAD HAVE TRIED TO MAKE ATHLETES INTO SOME SORT OF ROLE MODELS FOR WAY TOO LONG. THE IMAGE IS CRAFTED BUT I WOULD THINK SMARTER PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THROUGH ALL THE SMOKE AND FOG. CLEARLY, MANY PEOPLE DON'T SEE THROUGH IT AND SUCH A SITUATION HAS BEEN GOING ON THROUGH A RANGE OF PEOPLE FROM THE TIME OF BABE RUTH ALL THE WAY TO THE PRESENT. LETS SAVE OUR FAWNING FOR THE REAL HEROES WHO KEEP OUR COUNTRY AND SOCIETY GOING. HITTING A GOLF BALL -- EVEN THE BEST OF ALL TIME -- IS A GOO BIT LOWER ON THE CHARTS FOR ME.

He is the greatest golfer on the planet and people have the right to care about the way he acts and carries himself.
TIM, I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD NOT CARE.

Especially when the carefully crafted image is BS. Didn`t Earl Woods say Tiger would change the world and have a much more far reaching effect than just golf?, I don`t remember any of his peeps disagreeing. Saying you could give a rats ass what he does off the course is the easy way out. IN REGARDS TO EARL -- HE WAS PRONE TO PUSH THE METAL ON HIS SON A WEE BIT TOO MUCH. YOU SAY MY FNAL COMMENTS ABOUT NOT CARING A RATS ASS IS AN EASY WAY OUT -- HARDLY. I THINK IT'S MORE REALISTIC TO KNOW WHERE SPORTS FIGURE STAND N THE TOTAL SCHEME OF THINGS. LIKE I SAID I BOUGHT SINATRA RECORDS BECAUSE OF THE VOICE FROM OLE BLUE EYES -- NOT BECAUSE OF WHAT FRANK DID OutsideTHE RECORDING STUDIO.

[Mike Wagner]

Matt,

I'm confused about something.....you say "I don't give a rat's *ss about what these guys do in their private lives."  Then you go on to say you just hope "Tiger learns from this and becomes a better person."

I get your point, but do you really care if he becomes a better person or not?  Your first quote makes it very clear that you DO NOT.

Oh, and by the way, the phrase is "couldN'T care less."  If you could care less.....then you would

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I am a human being -- I care about a range of people and I do enjoy Tiger and what he does on the golf course. I only hope he can learn from this and be even better on a range of fronts.

I just don't FIXATE on what entertainers do off the course or movie lots or sound stages.

I see them as human beings -- with flaws -- some small, midside and some even larger.

Hope the info I provided helps your understanding.

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