Architecture, match play and gross score posting

[TEPaul]

Ed:

That's very interesting and sounds like a very creative and efficient handicap chairman or handicap committee at your club.

Unfortunately that's all too rare and many clubs have nothing like that. I found out last year that my club almost didn't have a handicap committee. When I told them they had to have one to conform to the definition of a golf club they might have upgraded its effectiveness some.

What you have works well at a club, but others, particularly those who travel or belong to other clubs or belong to the massive amounts of clubs who don't monitor correctly are the ones that a global hole by hole posting system would take care of! In this way it's a little like "slope" itself which seems to be a facet of the USGA's handicap "system" as opposed to their "GHIN System", that is beginning to go worldwide now.

The example that you give of a golfer that makes a bunch of birdies and a bunch of high others also evidences the anomolies of the present "single gross score" posting system. It's provable that a golfer like that who might be a 15 is vastly different in match play than a guy who's also a 15 who might be very consistent but makes about 15 bogies. But they are both 15s only because of the "gross score posting" system. But in the real world they are not remotely similar in match play.

The only way to unwrinkle this phenomenon presently is to do what your club does. But again a global hole by hole system would do this automatically. All the handicap committee has to do is peruse the data automatically produced by the hole by hole system! You could probably just put your clubs particular "formula" right into the system if you wanted to.

Actually a this kind of computer hole by hole handicap system could easily "tailor" an almost perfectly "equitable" game between two particular players if you gave it the available data of each which could probably be done by the flick of a few keystrokes! Think about that! It could actually spit out a card with the hole handicap allowances relative to each player exactly where their individual data would indicate they needed the strokes the most.

That's why I say the USGA should just let the technology work for them, the clubs and the players, if they want it. And why I also say Hole by hole posting basically solves every single handicap problem there is, if you let it! It can't solve fudging and cheating, nothing can, but it can make a process and data available to severely minimize it!

[TEPaul]

TomH:

Just think if you could post your gross score at the club if you wanted to and then went home, and at your own convenience supplemented that very same score with hole by hole posting? Or do it at home or the club or any GHIN computer or any other computer for that matter. It makes no difference, you could do it anywhere best for you.

That's why I sometimes say the USGA has an "either/or" mentality when they can have a "both" mentality! There's no reason not to let people use any place that works best for them as long as all it's doing is basically acheiving the same end, the same result--and in this case a better and more comprehensive result and end.

Security can be easily worked out as it always is today with a PIN number. And frankly, once this kind of thing takes hold what on earth could really be better "peer review" globally than the Internet? The more data you can make available to anyone and the more convenient you can make accessing that data the more effecient peer review will be, if you want it to be.

As for being complex. I don't think so, not if the USGA would use technology and ergomomics properly. The greatest drawback to something like the ESC system is 1/ It's based on voluntary compliance, and 2/ they keep changing the numbers involved with it so often in an attempt to make it simple that even I can hardly remember what it is this year! And everybody has to remember what it is because of the voluntary compliance of it!

With hole by hole they don't have to remember what the numbers are, they don't even have to know what ESC is because it'll be AUTOMATIC!! Just post the gross score you made on any hole, or what you think you would have made or even an "X" and the computer will do the ESC for you!

[THuckaby2]

Sounds very good to ME, TEP.  But then again, I work with computers for a living at least sort of, and I post on here!

I still shudder to think what the yahoos I see taking forever to post their normal scores would do with hole by hole.

So you see, I'm not debating the WORTH or MERIT of such a system - oh yeah, you've sold me - this would solve a lot of problems.

What I am debating is if the USGA could make this "ergonomically" feasible.  THAT I'd have to see to believe.  Never underestimate the stupidity of the average golfer.

BTW, at least here in the NCGA, we can post scores via internet NOW.  It basically just gets us into the USGA GHIN system.  Helpful, yes.  The "safeguard" is that scores posted via internet are marked with "AI", thus making such scores stand out.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Getting back to the original question, it seems that the stroke play mentality has definitely homogonized course design.  We don't have par 68's here.  

Hmmmm... interesting you should say that.  The great city of San Jose, CA opens its first new municipal course in something like 25 years next week.  It's a par 68 with 9 par 3's,  5 par 5's, 4 par 4's... yep, 68.  It was incredibly over-budget and is a story in and of itself...

It's gonna be very interesting to see how it is accepted.  But this might be a great testing ground for all sorts of handicapping/posting theories....

Great story re defeating the bagger!

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Riviera C.C. was notorious for some rather expensive games. When teeing off at No. 1, adjacent to the Starter Box, the starter gave the group a numbered card. That card had to be returned to the starter at the end of the round, if not, each member of the group was assumed to have shot an even par round. The protocol amongst the players was that no double bogey could be recorded and all in all, no one felt that they had been sandbagged. We did have one fine player, a notorious cheat, who would be allowed to play, but no one would bet with him; he upped and joined Bel Air C.C.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Golf is a strange game that penalizes you for being better than the rest of your foursome.  Handicaps only seem to matter when money is on the line.  Do we have a handicap system so players of various skills can compete on a level playing field, or so player of various skills can gamble together?  I've got my opinion.  

As for ESG, the high handicappers generally do not know or understand the rules for posting scores (ever seen a 11 or 12 go to a 15 or 16 in one month) and the sandbaggers don't care.  No answers here, but I sure would like to hear the standard answer on the first tee, "if you are looking for shots, go see your doctor".  

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

If everybody had availability to scoring records through the GHIN system over the Internet there really isn't much better "peer review" than that, wouldn't you think? If you know five or so known sandbagger or cheats or whatever you say there are in Chicago with the kind of data availibility over the Internet you could just report them and nail them.

Not much more anybody can do than that and one helluva lot better than now, so that's all one can do! Hole by Hole posting just makes the data more specific to catch them. And frankly it really doesn't make that much difference what they play, match or stroke if you could do hole by hole at your club or on the Internet anybody could put in their hole by hole for match play and also their UNADJUSTED gross score for stroke play too!

Anything is possible with computers and the posting procedure is way easier than most everyone thinks, particularly if the USGA would offer it and refine the ergonomics of it.

I hear too many people saying nothing can be done, nothing benefical can be done!  That just isn't true--it can be done and quite easily--the USGA just has to do it!

And you definitely can't have the USGA deciding they don't want to offer somebody a handicap who wants a handicap for some reason. That's patently ridiculous, arbritary and restrictive and it's not going to happen and never should!

Also refusing to deal with net tournaments as someone suggested on this thread is ridiculous too. As ridiculous as telling the American golfing public that they should play golf the way they do in the UK with the weekly or monthly stroke play tournament for handicapping purposes. That's the way it's always been there and never here. You have to get them to post with the way they play not make them play some other way because someone thinks it works better. That's a little like telling the American people that our government should be structured like the Chinese government because somebody think that works better!

[THuckaby2]

If everybody had availability to scoring records through the GHIN system over the Internet there really isn't much better "peer review" than that, wouldn't you think? If you know five or so known sandbagger or cheats or whatever you say there are in Chicago with the kind of data availibility over the Internet you could just report them and nail them.

TOM - WE HAVE THAT NOW - YOU CAN LOOK UP ANYONE THROUGH THE GHIN - FOR EXAMPLE I JUST LOOKED YOU UP AND SEE YOU ARE 1.9 AT GULPH MILLS, BUT HAVEN'T POSTED A SCORE SINCE JUNE 2001 - BOY, YOU REALLY HAVEN'T BEEN PLAYING, HAVE YOU?

Also refusing to deal with net tournaments as someone suggested on this thread is ridiculous too.

WHAT I HAD SUGGESTED IS THAT BAGGING IS SO PREVALENT, ONE JUST PLAIN CAN'T TAKE NET TOURNAMENTS VERY SERIOUSLY - NOT "OPEN" NET TOURNEYS ANYWAY.  SUCH CAN BE POLICED QUITE WELL INSIDE A CLUB - OUTSIDE, IT'S A BAGGERS' PARADISE.

 As ridiculous as telling the American golfing public that they should play golf the way they do in the UK with the weekly or monthly stroke play tournament for handicapping purposes. That's the way it's always been there and never here. You have to get them to post with the way they play not make them play some other way because someone thinks it works better. That's a little like telling the American people that our government should be structured like the Chinese government because somebody think that works better!

WELL SAID - I'M WITH YOU HERE.  STILL PRETTY DUBIOUS ABOUT THE MECHANICS, BUT WANTING TO GIVE IT A TRY!

TOM H.

[TEPaul]

TomH;

There you go--just give them whatever works for them. If they can't figure out computers then let em do it some other way for a time. Nobody knew much about computers thirty years ago now about 3/4 of American households have them.

The USGA just needs to get out ahead of this technology and steer clear of their "either/or" mentality. Give the people what works for them, give them both or anything as long as the data goes to the same end. And if they can't figure out how to post it a handicap chairman or anyone for that matter can see the gaps in their scoring data and show them  how or even handle them differently because the data isn't there.

When you depart from an "either/or" mentality a lot of things become possible. Look at Ed Baker's club, they do it their own way to the same basic end I'm talking about.

If this procedure was put in place they basically wouldn't have to do it their own way, all they'd have to do is look at any of the data that would be made available to them if they wanted to look at it!

[THuckaby2]

Makes sense to me, TEP.  If the technology for hole by hole is out there, it seems silly NOT to make it available, at least as an option at first.  Make it doable on sheets for those who still don't "get" computers.  In any case give access to all options.

SOLD!

The USGA sure does move slowly re all this, don't they? Internet posting could have been done years ago...

TH

[TEPaul]

TomH:

Baggers who rape "Open net" tournaments are not going to be in paradise with this kind of hole by hole posting data availability through the Internet to everyone.

You can look up my handicap now on GHIN sure, but what does it mean to you. If you had my hole scores of a round you knew and I flagrantly bagged you'd have me.

Same with these "open net tournament" baggers! Let them do what they do now just one time and BAM! they're DEAD and their handicap gets cut in half and if the USGA system wants to set up guidelines to make a baggers handicap go to nothing for the next two years like Rich says they do in the UK, then fine--there's nothing wrong with that!

[THuckaby2]

TEP - we crossed in cyberspace.  Again, SOLD!

So why pray tell aren't the folks in Far Hills making this available?  

TH

[TEPaul]

TomH

It's not just that the USGA coulda done it years ago they shoulda done it years ago!

Why didn't they? Couple of reasons! Initially they were freaked out by perceived data storage obstacles. Then they were freaked by security concerns about posting on the Internet. I guess they'd never heard of things like PIN #s. Lastly they are basically stuck back about fifty years ago when things really did revolve around a golf club and they couldn't get out of their "club only peer review system" of instant access to someone's score.

You ain't just kidding that scoring records (even hole by hole) on the Internet is the best peer review there could ever be but it took em about ten years to realize that too!

So it's not they coulda done it--they shoulda done it--but now is never too late!

[TEPaul]

Ah, Shivas, I was just telling TomH that it's never too late for the USGA to start to get with the times and use technology, but you know what, it just might be too late for them now or certainly one of these days soon.

Speaking of the USGA and their GHIN system, the Chicago district just dumped GHIN!! Chicago's regional amateur association is one of the biggest in the nation and they just dumped GHIN!

I think these USGA people have probably been sitting on their hands just a little too long! When stuff like that happens it means the cracks are really starting to show!!

[THuckaby2]

Sad, scary stuff Tom.  I am indeed bummed.  Is there hope the USGA will see the light here?

Chicago dumping GHIN is not a good sign.

TH

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom H

UK hole-by-hole posting is simple partly because you only post tournament scores.  When you get to the PC in the lobby, they already have input the course rating and your name and handicap and handicap number, so you just look up your name, a mock scorecard pops up on the screen, you post 18 numbers, it asks tyou to confirm and bingo.

shivas

The nightmare scenario you talk about could not happen in the UK.  To go from 2 to 7 you would need to post 50 tournament scores that were ALL above your slowly rising handicap.  To get back from 7 to 2 you would have to post about 10 consecutive tournament scores playing to 2.  There are few sandbaggers who are that persistent or that good.

[Richard_Goodale]

shivas

The UK system is an infinite series.  Your handicap goes up slowly over time like a wave building up in the sea and then breaks down gently when you play to your potential, and then starts the cycle all over again...........

Why are you playing in net tournaments anyway?

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

If they can't post more than a double because of automatic ESC application that's a big head start on sandbaggers. Gross score posting "unadjusted" is just not as easy to spot. Hole by hole posting is just much easier to identify the sandbagging.

You probably can't look up handicaps right now because CDGA just dropped the GHIN system.

[JohnV]

As I recall, the Northern California GA used to print your lowest handicap (LH) of the year on your handicap card and some courses required you to use that for tournaments.   I remember that I almost wasn't allowed to play in an event with my father because my OGA card didn't have LH on it.  Now that I'm living down here I don't see it on my card.  

What happened to it?  

It seems like it would help with the guys who push their index low to get into gross tournaments and then let it slide up for the net ones.

Also, just using T scores for indexes would be a good idea.  Closer to the UK system.  I like the UKs system, too bad we can't get the USGA and the UK to unite the handicap system at the same time they unite the equipment rules (whenever that is.)

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  my assumption is we're never going to the UK tournament scores only system.  Yes, in a tournament it would be easy to set up a facility for posting, however you do it.  Heck, we do that now as you will find out / have found out at your La Rinconada event... they have the sheets right there for you and MAKE you post.  I could see that working quite easily for tournaments, as you say.

I remain dubious about making it easy for REGULAR play.. and I feel very strongly people here just plain won't go for tournament only posting, no matter how much sense it makes.

So under that assumption, how do we make hole-by-hole posting EASY?  That is my concern here.

JV - LH has been gone for two years now - I too have no idea why.

TH

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom

If the USGA says tournament play only for posting, it will happen.  I too remember the LH idea.  It was a good one.  It would go a long way to solving shivas' problem.

[THuckaby2]

Rich - the USGA ain't gonna say that - they'd piss off 95% of their constituency, something they most definitely do NOT want to do in these perilous days with their authority so challenged on the equipment issue.

TH

[JakaB]

It would be very simple to post hole by hole scores into the madatory GPS system installed in carts or on hand held devices which would in turn be sent to a mainframe to calculate handicaps updated on a hole by hole basis.  

I have spent the last year trying to figure out how to stop intentional cheats...its not worth the time or effort in a game that is to be enjoyed...what is really sad is that on a day when I don't have the energy to drive to a course where there are no "winter rules"...I just put up with it and seem to end up pissed every time.

[THuckaby2]

JakaB - hmmm... this is a step in the "right" direction, at least re handicaps - oh yes, posting of hole by hole scores on the system in the carts using GPS exists NOW most definitely.  You can ask the thing to "keep score" for you.  Seems very simple to link that to GHIN at the end.

Of course this doesn't solve what WALKERS do, but these days that is such a minority that what the hell, we can figure it out.

And as for ridding the system of cheats - I'm with you - can't be done if they want it bad enough.  That's why I say I just don't take net tournaments very seriously....

TH

[THuckaby2]

Interesting side note here.  I just had to check my current index for a tournament signup, to see if April was on there yet (it's not), and I noticed something I hadn't before in the GHIN system:  they indeed do list your "eligible tournament scores" - ie "T" scores - in an easy to find, separate table!  Seems to me it would be VERY easy for tournaments to require that players use the index computed from these scores ONLY, and thus in effect adopt the UK system for competition purposes.  This would seem to solve both issues here:  those who want handicaps for everyday use can use whichever they want, and it's up to their competitors to "check" this... in tournament play, the "T" based index could be made mandatory, thus solving the sandbagging issue to a HUGE extent.

VERY interesting.  Maybe we're farther along than I thought.  Yes, hole-by-hole posting is the best answer, but until that is mandated, it would indeed be damn easy to use a T-based index.

John V - I know, you were getting at this about 20 posts ago.  I just had to see it for myself!

TH