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John Moore II

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2010, 10:14:32 PM »
I do not know anyone who takes this particular ranking seriously.  More often, it is the subject of total ridicule.  Business NC Magazine is not a golf publication.  I doubt anyone who is truly interested in the relative stature of NC courses would ever consider this list a legitimate source.  It just has never had any basis in reality whatsoever.  So its hard for me to get too worked up over it. 

Ed

See, thats the problem, many people would take it as a legit list. No, no one who knows anything about the courses would agree with this, but someone just reading to try and find a place to play would be led wrong by reading this list rather than some that are looked upon as more reliable.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 02:11:49 AM »
I declare SHENANIGANS on this ranking list!
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 09:22:10 AM »
I'm preaching to the choir but.....
Carolina Golf Club.
Old Town.

John Moore II

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2010, 11:38:55 AM »
I'm preaching to the choir but.....
Carolina Golf Club.
Old Town.


For what its worth, which Carolina Golf Club are we talking about? I can think of two with pretty much that exact name, one in Raleigh and one in Pinehurst. I'm sure we aren't talking about the one in Pinehurst, but are we talking about the Carolina in Raleigh?

John Kirk

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2010, 12:06:47 PM »
Another interesting omssion is Mountaintop Golf Club in Cashiers, NC, which I thought looked pretty snazzy.

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2010, 12:54:45 PM »
I'm talking about Carolina GC in Charlotte. Kris Spence/Donald Ross.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2010, 06:14:37 PM »
What about Pinehurst #4... if that course is #10 in your state, you have some problems!

Greg Tallman

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2010, 06:32:40 PM »
About al I can say about this ranking is they are better than Golfweek.

John Moore II

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2010, 06:51:09 PM »
About al I can say about this ranking is they are better than Golfweek.

Umm.....No.

Greg Tallman

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2010, 06:55:57 PM »
About al I can say about this ranking is they are better than Golfweek.

Umm.....No.

Says you. Great thing about rankings... they spark fun debate

John Moore II

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2010, 07:02:03 PM »
About al I can say about this ranking is they are better than Golfweek.

Umm.....No.

Says you. Great thing about rankings... they spark fun debate

Fair enough. I've all ready said why I think its wrong though. Please do tell why you think its spot on, or better than Golfweek.

Matt_Ward

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2010, 07:20:35 PM »
Someone has to explain to me how CC of NC still commans that high of a rating.

I like the course but the Tar Heel State has added a good bit of golf in the last 25 or so years of golf development.

How it commands a top ten placement is boggling to me but given what Jim L wrote I can understand how the outcomes listed have happened.

Greg Tallman

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2010, 08:21:51 PM »
About al I can say about this ranking is they are better than Golfweek.

Umm.....No.

Says you. Great thing about rankings... they spark fun debate

Fair enough. I've all ready said why I think its wrong though. Please do tell why you think its spot on, or better than Golfweek.

John, Comment is more about the absurdity of the new Golfweek list moreso than the NC list that has some obvious head scratchers.

Link Walsh

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2010, 08:26:35 PM »
I was thinking Mid Pines too.  I haven't played very many of these courses, but courses like Duke and Finley aren't even in the same league.  It's just such a fun course to play.

 

John Moore II

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2010, 09:38:24 PM »
I was thinking Mid Pines too.  I haven't played very many of these courses, but courses like Duke and Finley aren't even in the same league.  It's just such a fun course to play.

Its better than Finley, but not Duke, IMO. It should certainly be in the top 50, but where I am not sure. I mean, there are probably a dozen courses just in the Pinehurst area that I would say are better than Mid Pines. Of course, this is the fun thing about these rankings, debate, just like Greg said.

As far as CCNC goes, they probably have connections with the publisher of the magazine or something. Its a very good course, probably top 5 in the Pinehurst area, but that would mean its not top 10 in the state.

Brock Peyer

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 09:59:23 PM »
I am curious how Wade Hampton is so low and also wondering where Mountaintop is?  Should we expect that it be an accurate list and that the treehouse would agree with it?

jim_lewis

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2010, 10:08:21 PM »
 Regarding Wade Hampton...I don't think they accommodate or host outings for the magazine's raters. Therefore, I imagine that most of the raters have not played it. There may be some resentment at play. The newer high-end clubs generally don't seem to do so well compared to the old money courses. Roaring Gap seems to be an exception that I can't explain. I certainly is an old money club.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 10:25:32 PM by jim_lewis »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

David_Madison

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2010, 06:53:31 AM »
I can't imagine discussing or debating these results, they're so preposterous. I know number of the raters, and they haven't a clue. They also haven't played Wade, Mountaintop, Old Town, Charlotte CC since it's been redone. The general comment I get from them about the courses they like is that the club hosted a nice event, the course was nice, it wasn't too tough, and it was in nice condition. Nice.

Brian Freeman

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 01:56:56 PM »
I can't comment broadly on the entire 100 as the CCNC courses and Pinehurst #8 are the only ones of the Top 20 I've seen (CCNC about a half-dozen times and #8 just once), most of my play in this state has been of the bottom 80. (and below that)  8) 

So while I can't compare CCNC to the other Top 20, I will say both courses are resoundingly better IMO than Pinehurst #8 and two of my favorite tracks anywhere.  I played extensively at Tanglewood for 2 years and really have trouble believing that it would not be in at least the top 25-40.  There is a lot of great golf in this state though.  Also agree with in terms of the 3 ACC courses, Finley as superior to Duke and NC State's courses (I really didn't see what the fuss was about at Duke, think maybe I need to give it another shot).  I really like a lot of things about Tobacco Road but don't think is a Top 20 caliber kind of course.

I do agree with the general consensus that it's silly to some point to debate a generic panel's recommendations, I would place more value on the contributors to this site in terms of overall knowledge.

So my question for any of the folks who have played extensively in NC and have commented previously in this thread would be - what's your Top 10 in the state?  And what would be your detailed rationale for some of the Top 10-20 on this list that are not in your own?

Mike Tanner

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2010, 03:58:14 PM »
Is St. James Plantation a Dye course? Was it called The Gauntlet at St. James Plantation at one time?

Richard,
The Gauntlet (now called The Founders Club) is a PB Dye design and actually predates the residential development.

John Moore,
Good question. The four courses: Founders Club/PB Dye, Members Club/Hale Irwin, Players Club/Tim Cate and Reserve Club/Michael Nicklaus.
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

John Moore II

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2010, 04:57:29 PM »
Brian Freeman: I just have to ask why you think Finley is better than both NCSU and Duke? I think its the worst of the three, but a large margin. Finley is just bland, huge wide fairways, not much as far as angles into greens, bunkers just here and there. I didn't like it. Duke I did like, the one hole at the base of the range I didn't care for, but given the water drainage there, it was probably the best they could do. I thought Duke was far superior to Finley as far as strategy, angles and such. And I thought NCSU was better than both for the same reasons. Every hole at NCSU has a number of options you can use to play the holes, not a lot of stuff out of place and the like. Oh well. Just an opinion. I'd like to hear yours though.

Brian Freeman

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2010, 11:51:28 PM »
Here goes: I really like Finley from 100 yds in.  You're probably right off the tee, but just seems like the kind of course in the few times I've played it that has a lot of variety from round to round and allows for creative shots and recovery shots around the greens, and made me think a lot about approach shots as a result.  I would say the same thing about CCNC.

You touched exactly on my biggest Duke criticism - it was a swamp when I played it, which is tough to overcome.  And other than a couple of the Par 5s and the par 3 with the lake on the back, not a lot of holes stand out in my memory.  Lack of roll and a variety of memorable holes are two pretty big strikes for me.  But it could be a totally different place during a dry summer.  I had to pull up the website to remember the holes, but after my first round at both Finley and NCSU I could recite most of the course from memory.

I like a reasonably quirky course, but NCSU feels over the top in a couple of places, in particular around the greens.  I really want to like it, though, I fell in love with Bethpage at the US Open last summer and it has a very similar look in places.  The Par 3s are weak as a collection in my mind, #3 would have been much better as a three-shot par 5, and there was plenty of land available to make the hole 50-100 yds longer.  #18 was a poor hole in my opinion, playing a little wet the day I played it, from 200 out, a little pull and you're in the parking lot, push and you're in the hazard, and no real bailout option.  And it's still 440 from the 3rd set so I bet your average 15 handicapper just gets killed on that hole.  There's a half-dozen or so potentially great holes in there though.  Playing it again this weekend so I'll withhold further criticism until I get some more rounds there under my belt.  It's suffered a fair amount this winter from being a new course so this could totally change with a couple years of maturity.  So I give NCSU an incomplete pending further evaluation.

(Full disclosure - no school bias here, I'm a Wake grad.  With all that Carolina blue in the pro shop at Finley I certainly pay and get out in a hurry...)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 11:53:34 PM by Brian Freeman »

John Moore II

Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2010, 03:36:56 AM »
Here goes: I really like Finley from 100 yds in.  You're probably right off the tee, but just seems like the kind of course in the few times I've played it that has a lot of variety from round to round and allows for creative shots and recovery shots around the greens, and made me think a lot about approach shots as a result.  I would say the same thing about CCNC.

You touched exactly on my biggest Duke criticism - it was a swamp when I played it, which is tough to overcome.  And other than a couple of the Par 5s and the par 3 with the lake on the back, not a lot of holes stand out in my memory.  Lack of roll and a variety of memorable holes are two pretty big strikes for me.  But it could be a totally different place during a dry summer.  I had to pull up the website to remember the holes, but after my first round at both Finley and NCSU I could recite most of the course from memory.

I like a reasonably quirky course, but NCSU feels over the top in a couple of places, in particular around the greens.  I really want to like it, though, I fell in love with Bethpage at the US Open last summer and it has a very similar look in places.  The Par 3s are weak as a collection in my mind, #3 would have been much better as a three-shot par 5, and there was plenty of land available to make the hole 50-100 yds longer.  #18 was a poor hole in my opinion, playing a little wet the day I played it, from 200 out, a little pull and you're in the parking lot, push and you're in the hazard, and no real bailout option.  And it's still 440 from the 3rd set so I bet your average 15 handicapper just gets killed on that hole.  There's a half-dozen or so potentially great holes in there though.  Playing it again this weekend so I'll withhold further criticism until I get some more rounds there under my belt.  It's suffered a fair amount this winter from being a new course so this could totally change with a couple years of maturity.  So I give NCSU an incomplete pending further evaluation.

(Full disclosure - no school bias here, I'm a Wake grad.  With all that Carolina blue in the pro shop at Finley I certainly pay and get out in a hurry...)

I played NCSU in the summer. It had been open less than a week, I actually played it before the grand opening. Might have only been open for public play 2 or 3 days when I played. I guess the thing with NCSU that you have to understand is that it was, from my understanding, designed specifically to be a tournament course. Thats why its beastly long and really hard. And I'm sure it has suffered this winter, its been a bad winter, a lot more snow than usual. I liked 18. Yeah its hard and long. So the normal 15 handicap should probably play it as a par 5. #3 is a par 5 100%, IMO. When I saw that hole yardage and par 4, I honestly thought it was a typo on the score card. I certainly think that course will get better over time.

(Yeah, I'll disclose too. NCSU grad. I thought Duke was better than Finley since first playing the two, and just thought NCSU was a better golf course, school pride aside)

Link Walsh

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2010, 12:56:38 PM »
I was thinking Mid Pines too.  I haven't played very many of these courses, but courses like Duke and Finley aren't even in the same league.  It's just such a fun course to play.

Its better than Finley, but not Duke, IMO. It should certainly be in the top 50, but where I am not sure. I mean, there are probably a dozen courses just in the Pinehurst area that I would say are better than Mid Pines. Of course, this is the fun thing about these rankings, debate, just like Greg said.

As far as CCNC goes, they probably have connections with the publisher of the magazine or something. Its a very good course, probably top 5 in the Pinehurst area, but that would mean its not top 10 in the state.



John,

I guess my criticism of Duke vs. Mid Pines would fall into a few major categories.  First, the recovery options at Duke are generally limited to opening up your wedge and playing a lob shot onto an elevated surface.  Second, I've played Duke about a half dozen times, and it does seem to be wet quite often.  There are some really good holes out there, like #1, 5, 8, 9, and 14-18.  But you feel like you've been pulverized after each round out there, and it's tough having to pay $100 or whatever they charge now out there to play it. 

Mid Pines however offers fun without overbearing difficulty.  You have options around the green, and a variety of green settings and designs.  I love the greens of #11 and #12 for example, and they are as different as you can get- 11 is big and heaving with 2 distinct lobes, while 12 is elevated, tiny, and downright scary to play to.  Plus, the level of difficulty of the course depends on how you play the holes- not how difficult the designer made it.  In short, you the golfer have real options.  For example, holes like #4 and 9 seem innocuous at first because they are short without much trouble.  But if you press too much and play overly aggressively, you can walk away with a bogey or worse pretty fast.  I understand Rees Jones had a mission to make the course difficult enough for elite college play, and he did a good job of it (and it's a very nice looking course too) But I would much rather play Mid Pines and walk away with a smile on my face any day of the week. 

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.     

Niall Hay

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Re: New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2010, 02:07:58 PM »
Every year, I post the new "North Carolina Golf Course Rankings" published by Business North Carolina magazine. As always, they create much discussion and debate among the golf course enthusiasts on Golfclubatlas. Here goes....

1. Pinehurst No. 2 

2. Grandfather

3. Old North State

4. Quail Hollow

5. Pine Needles 

6. CCNC Dogwood

7. Charlotte CC

8. Forest Creek South

9. Elk River

10. Pinehurst No. 4

11. Linville

12. Pinehurst No. 8

13. Cape Fear CC

14. Eagle Point

15. Biltmore Forest

16. Forest Creek North

17. Rock Barn

18. Sedgefield CC

19. Wade Hampton

20. CCNC Cardinal

21. National Golf Club

22. Brights Creek

23. Raleigh CC

24. Old Town Club

25. River Landing

26. Balsam mountain Preserve

27. Myers Park CC

28. Willow Creek CC

29. Longview

30. Treyburn

31. Hasentree

32. Duke University

33. The Cliffs at Walnut Cove

34. Irish Creek

35. Legends Chase

36. Linville Ridge

37. Tigers Eye

38. Finley

39. Pinehurst No. 7

40. St James Plantation

41. Forsyth CC (other notables)

46. Alamance CC

53. Tanglwood Championship

63. Tobacco Road

74. Mimosa Hills

Diamond Creek, Carolina Golf Club, and Roaring Gap Club were unranked.



Why no Diamond Creek?