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Greg Tallman

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Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« on: March 02, 2010, 12:13:56 AM »
Just returned to Cabo from playing Tom Doak's Bahia del los Sueños about 2 hours north of Cabo San Lucas.

Weekend consisted of Diamante on Saturday, drive up the coast to BDLS, watch the hockey games with Canadians chirping in our ears, fishing on the beach at BDLS(buddy caught a lobster... LOL) and golf at BDLS today.

First impressions after playing the course after having seen it during construction...

WIDE - huge driving areas, maybe 90 yards wide in some areas. I would say that on many holes the hole location dictated where the tee shot should be placed. Overall not much of a premium on distance or accuracy from what I could see (played with a guy who was 20-30 yards shorter and one that was 30-40 yards longer... did not feel i was giving up to the longer player(except #12) or gaining much on the shorter player.

PENAL - Approaches were incredibly penal in terms of repelling the ball away from the hole. Did not play a single hole where it seemed I could use the wild contours to my advantage (in fairness the course is not ready for regular play and the greens were VERY hard). That said it seems there is a need for SOME containment bunkering as we did several (rather unscientific) tests like dropping the ball on the edge of #7 green and watching it roll into the desert into an unplayable lie(made 2 there but playing companion did not!). Again very new and playing conditions were not "finished" so we will see but more than one bvery well struck shot wound up unplayable or nearly so.

VARIETY - A+ Flat, hilly, uphill downhill, 3 drivable par 4's, tough par 5's, generally wide but a few that will make you tighten up. Simly put the course was fun. Of the 3 drivable par 4's hit decent if not excellent tee shots on 2 of 3 with the third being a perfect miss. #8 - 35 yards right of the hole and had to hit the best shot of the day to keep the ball on the correct level, navigating a mound in the approach in doing so. #11 - good miss was 25 yards short and again a precise pitch required to keep the ball from running well away from the hole (I failed miserably here) and finally #14 - best tee shot of the day but caught the edge of a small mound and into the greenside bunker... front pin placement here and either lay well back or get it on the surface otherwise a 3 will require a long putt. This hole was a par 3 in the original design but stretched a bit when green was moved back a bit to make a pretty interesting short 4.

Only issue is all par 5 approaches are uphill or to raised greens... not really a criticism but an observations. 5's are pretty difficult given the approaches and trouble long.

GREENS - Generally wild but a few that were rather tame... with the wind(though they tell you that 9 months of the year the wind will not blow) getting close is a chore and then some. As noted they were bery hard and that added to the difficulty.

Bottom line  - perhaps a bit early to give a true indication of the course but it is already fun and will only improve with maturity.

Apologies for the weakness of this review but has been a long week. I will make an attempt at a more digetsible review in a few days.


Oh, and a little tidbit... we met a designer on site scoping out the second course. Interesting that they do seem set on moving ahaed at this time with a second course but that seems to be the case. The designer would be very popular among those on this site.

Time for bed... more golf (Ocean Course) tomorrow.

Trey Kemp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 12:20:18 AM »
Greg, Thanks for the review, I look forward to playing it and Diamante soon.  I will be there in late April and hope to play at least one of them.
twitter.com/TreyKempGCA

Tim Book

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 11:30:39 AM »
Greg,

How tough would it be to get up to BDLS from Los Cabos?  Would love to try to get to BDLS the next time I am down there, but without much knowledge of the area it appears somewhat challenging.  Adding a rental car to my Los Cabos expierence might be a buzz kill?

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 12:30:24 PM »
Tim--

You make a really good point concerning car rental in Cabo.  If you get off the beaten track at all, the road are AWFUL.  I drove out to Puerto los Cabos from Cabo san Lucas and the ride from San Jose del Cabo to the development is incredibly bumpy.  On top of this, in foreign countries, they give your car a thorough inspection upon your return and they notice every little scratch.  Rule of thumb, give your rental car a thorough look before you leave the facility when you first rent.

I hope Greg can tell us about the quality of the roads going to both Bahia and Diamante.  Of course, you can stay in the tourist corridor and play Greg's awesome 36 at Cabo del Sol. 

Greg--
My attempt is not to threadjack, but do you know the latest concerning Chileno Bay?  It should be VERY ready if it's progressed at all from this time last year.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 06:36:45 PM »
Tim--

You make a really good point concerning car rental in Cabo.  If you get off the beaten track at all, the road are AWFUL.  I drove out to Puerto los Cabos from Cabo san Lucas and the ride from San Jose del Cabo to the development is incredibly bumpy.  On top of this, in foreign countries, they give your car a thorough inspection upon your return and they notice every little scratch.  Rule of thumb, give your rental car a thorough look before you leave the facility when you first rent.

I hope Greg can tell us about the quality of the roads going to both Bahia and Diamante.  Of course, you can stay in the tourist corridor and play Greg's awesome 36 at Cabo del Sol. 

Greg--
My attempt is not to threadjack, but do you know the latest concerning Chileno Bay?  It should be VERY ready if it's progressed at all from this time last year.

Chileno is in a holding pattern  and in search of capital. Golf course could have been layed 12 months ago had things been a bit different in terms of travel and financial markets. No guesses for now... too much involved over there for now.

Road to Diamante is fine though through a highly traveled section of town. No worries just pay attention. Only about 20 minutes from Cabo del Sol and other corridor resorts/hotels.

Bahia del los Sueños is a bit more adventurous and you would likely want to stay the night at Grand Sueños if incorporating this into yor trip. In fact I believe it the only way to access the golf at this time. Worth the trip though. Trip is 2 hours and 30 minutes from Cabo del Sol and I was not bashful on the road.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 08:39:01 AM »
Greg--

I hope they're at least still trying to maintain Chileno because it will draw a lot of positive attention upon opening even from the Fazio bashers I think. 

Thanks for the info on driving.....  I need to get back down there and see Bahia and Diamante as well as another shot at CDS. 
Hope you're well.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 08:27:23 PM »
Greg--

I hope they're at least still trying to maintain Chileno because it will draw a lot of positive attention upon opening even from the Fazio bashers I think. 

Thanks for the info on driving.....  I need to get back down there and see Bahia and Diamante as well as another shot at CDS. 
Hope you're well.


Adam, They are keeping on life support a couple of folks have played it thought the greens are not being cut at playing height for obvious reasons ($$$). It will be a nice addition to Cabo golf scene and maybe even get consideration for Golfweek's top 50 in Mexico, Carribean, Central America  and the Atlantic...  ::)

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 06:17:03 PM »
Getting ready for round 2 at Bay of Dreams (actually called Bay of the Dead... but those marketing types didn't like that). I will leave the reveiw to my playing companion who often "lurks" on this site. Should be a good time and will be nice to see if the greens have come along a bit in terms of smoothness and firmness.

Interesting that nobody took an interenst in the proposed designer of the second course here that we ran into during last trip.

Oh an just one little quip... on a previous thread there was a picture of the short par 3 third. One poster wrote that the hole looked like something from Nicklaus rather than Doak. For the record the photo does not necessarily do this hole justice. We (group made up of 2 professionals, a 5 or 6 handicap and a 15ish) played the hole from 124 and walked away with a single par thank you very much. PURE Doak at the green and this hole would be an absolute blast almost regardless of hole location. 2 can be had be rest assured nobody going to kick themselves for making a 3 unless they miss a shorty after a fantastic tee shot as that what it takes to have any real shit at 2. 

Sure hope my Mountaineers' tourney schedule does not complicate the planning of this side trip. Then again... priorities!!

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 06:24:23 PM »
Interesting that nobody took an interenst in the proposed designer of the second course here that we ran into during last trip.

Sounds like you want to spill the beans....I'm listening  ;)
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 06:39:51 PM »
Interesting that nobody took an interenst in the proposed designer of the second course here that we ran into during last trip.

Sounds like you want to spill the beans....I'm listening  ;)

Probably not a good idea. Just found it interesting on this site that folks were not interested in who and even more so, why, given the status and location of the project. Truth be told it is probably the kind of out of the box thinking that will keep the project viable during tough times.

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 08:20:20 PM »
Mark,

My guess on the golf designer you met walking around would be Mr Hanse.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 08:51:54 PM »
wasn't me....wish it was!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 10:20:51 PM »
Mark,

My guess on the golf designer you met walking around would be Mr Hanse.

He was supposed to do the second course at Querencia.

Greg, maybe that one can be rated before it is even started, just based on drawings ;)

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 02:30:31 AM »
Mark,

My guess on the golf designer you met walking around would be Mr Hanse.

My guess is you knew something LONG before I and the fact that you state it openly reveals it is OK to discuss in an open forum. Did you work on the course at BDLS?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 02:37:48 AM »
wasn't me....wish it was!

Having played your masterpiece at Diamante I agree, no offense to Gil or anyone else. Would still like to pick your brain about a couple of green locations/designs at Diamante but count me in as a huge fan (as if that were in question at this point).

In all honesty the seond site at Bay of Dreams will likely not be the equal of Tom's but, depending on land provided, could be an awesome mountain design. Truth be told Tom's most memorable holes are probably a couple of "mountain holes" and one dead flat hole in a distinctly desert setting... with a "boring" green to boot!! 

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2010, 02:41:56 AM »
Mark,

My guess on the golf designer you met walking around would be Mr Hanse.

He was supposed to do the second course at Querencia.

Greg, maybe that one can be rated before it is even started, just based on drawings ;)

Still is Sean. Don't see that changing and seems good news could be on the horizon there. Some lending channels are still available.. just not free money any longer.  

By the way on routing alone... I'll give Gil's Querencia design the quick nod over the local course I reference.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 02:44:11 AM by Greg Tallman »

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 11:39:48 AM »
Greg,

What do you think of Fazios routing at Q. Considering the land, I thought it was impressive.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2010, 03:38:40 PM »
wasn't me....wish it was!

Having played your masterpiece at Diamante I agree, no offense to Gil or anyone else. Would still like to pick your brain about a couple of green locations/designs at Diamante but count me in as a huge fan (as if that were in question at this point).

In all honesty the seond site at Bay of Dreams will likely not be the equal of Tom's but, depending on land provided, could be an awesome mountain design. Truth be told Tom's most memorable holes are probably a couple of "mountain holes" and one dead flat hole in a distinctly desert setting... with a "boring" green to boot!!  


Thank you my friend.....can't believe we have not been able to meet up these past few years.

Especially as I will not be there as much now that we have opened....strange thing about this business....you carry and birth something and then give it up for adoption, with little contact from then on!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 10:14:44 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 04:09:12 PM »
Greg,

What do you think of Fazios routing at Q. Considering the land, I thought it was impressive.

Sean,

I think Querencia is a good course with a handful of really strong holes and a few that were "fit in" based on a preset beginning and ending point (that speaks to the routing as much as I care to or am qualified to do).

Overall it is an enjoyable experience with typical Fazio greens that can get out of control at times.

If I were visiting Cabo and were able to get on I would certainly do so.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2010, 02:19:38 AM »
I swear if I see orange pants and white belt I will play naked... could it look much worse?

I will remain clothed during the 2 hour 30 minute drive from cabo, but after that...

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2010, 01:09:24 PM »
Greg,

I have never visited the site but I know the topography like the back of my hand.  I played around with some routings for Tom many, many years ago and I know the routing versions I did never made the final cut. The site has a long history but it is now finished and waiting for the first golfers and the opinions that come with them.


Greg are you affiliated with the Cabo del Sol resort and  Is that how you stay in touch with all of the golf courses in the area?  I would like to come back and play Diamante it looks interesting.


Anthony Gray

Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2010, 01:14:17 PM »


  My wife speeks spanish and Bahia de los Suenos means Bay de los Suenos.

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2010, 01:19:11 PM »



  Latin Weman seem to have this thing for me....is this area safe?

   Anthony



Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2010, 08:10:37 PM »
Greg,

I have never visited the site but I know the topography like the back of my hand.  I played around with some routings for Tom many, many years ago and I know the routing versions I did never made the final cut. The site has a long history but it is now finished and waiting for the first golfers and the opinions that come with them.


Greg are you affiliated with the Cabo del Sol resort and  Is that how you stay in touch with all of the golf courses in the area?  I would like to come back and play Diamante it looks interesting.



Jim, I am with Cabo del Sol and try to stay up (and talk up) wnything new and worthwhile in the region as it is good for all of us. Diamante is certainly worth a visit.

I would have loved the green complexes and overall playing strategy at Sueños back when I had a masterful short game but now as one who has no short game... That said I found it a blast to play and the different settings (2,14,18 greens/#5 alone/10-13) are amazing within a single round of golf.

If you get to this area feel free to look me up.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bahia de los Sueños - Doak... and more?????
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 08:12:02 PM »


  My wife speeks spanish and Bahia de los Suenos means Bay de los Suenos.

  Anthony



or Bahia de los Sueños Rotos as my esteemd playing companion called it after going 5 over on the last 4 holes for a smoth 80 (16 hcp)

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