[Tim Gavrich]

I enjoy the Mountain View course at Callaway Gardens (where the Generals did battle today), but that 15th hole is pretty funky.  I hit Driver-gap wedge-gap wedge in order to keep my layup from rolling down to the water short of the green.  So I decided that it was worth declaring "shenanigans" (i.e. silliness, BS, etc...) on the hole.  So...

If one needs to lay up with a gap wedge on a par 5, I declare "shenanigans."

Anyone else have some GCA-related declarations of "shenanigans" worth sharing?

Cheers.

--Tim

[Garland Bayley]

I got a better one than that. Par 5 that required 5 wood short of hazard, gap wedge over hazard short of next hazard, 5 iron to green. This when the hole was brand new. The membership of the club must have insisted on some change so the long hazard in front of the green is now mostly fairway with two tiny stream beds running through it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
I don't remember the Pros laying up when they used to play it?   

[Mark Chaplin]

Tim - I'd declare No Bottle!

[JNC Lyon]

If one is in the middle of the fairway and blocked out by trees, I declare shenanigans!

"Hey Farva, what's that place you like to eat with the mozzarella sticks and all the goofy sh*t on the walls?"

[Bart Bradley]

If my ball is positioned beneath the hole and I strike a putt that gets to the hole that then rolls back downhill to my original position or farther.....

[jonathan_becker]

If one is in the middle of the fairway and blocked out by trees, I declare shenanigans!

I agree completely

"Hey Farva, what's that place you like to eat with the mozzarella sticks and all the goofy sh*t on the walls?"

Hahahahaha

[Garland Bayley]

If my ball is positioned beneath the hole and I strike a putt that gets to the hole that then rolls back downhill to my original position or farther.....

I have to call that one on Black Mesa #11. A nice four putt. First two returned to my feet, third one started back and then hung up on the rear lip to the hole. Fourth was a tick in.

[TEPaul]

"I got a better one than that. Par 5 that required 5 wood short of hazard, gap wedge over hazard short of next hazard, 5 iron to green."

Garland:

That concept was developed by Tilly. It's the par 5 version or variation of his unique par 4 "Cart before the Horse" hole, and it's called "The cart driver before the cart before the horse" hole. The strategic idea is that if they are all connected properly it involves a certain amount of simultaneous pulling and pushing.

Some may label it shenanigans but personally I think it's brilliant.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom,

Are you sure it was Tilly, not Flynn? At Huntingdon Valley? Or is it the Tilly variation on a theme by Flynn?

[Sean_A]

If one is in the middle of the fairway and blocked out by trees, I declare shenanigans!

"Hey Farva, what's that place you like to eat with the mozzarella sticks and all the goofy sh*t on the walls?"

John

What if the fairway is 70 yards wide?

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

If my ball is positioned beneath the hole and I strike a putt that gets to the hole that then rolls back downhill to my original position or farther.....

I have to call that one on Black Mesa #11. A nice four putt. First two returned to my feet, third one started back and then hung up on the rear lip to the hole. Fourth was a tick in.

"Seve, how did you four putt?"

Seve:  "I miss, I miss, I miss, I make."

I don't remember #11 being that steep, where was the hole cut?   I've played five rounds there and don't think I've ever seen the hole in front of of the middle.

[Garland Bayley]

If my ball is positioned beneath the hole and I strike a putt that gets to the hole that then rolls back downhill to my original position or farther.....

I have to call that one on Black Mesa #11. A nice four putt. First two returned to my feet, third one started back and then hung up on the rear lip to the hole. Fourth was a tick in.

"Seve, how did you four putt?"

Seve:  "I miss, I miss, I miss, I make."

I don't remember #11 being that steep, where was the hole cut?   I've played five rounds there and don't think I've ever seen the hole in front of of the middle.

My recollection is that the hole was cut near the center of the green. The problem occurred during my morning round. By the time I played the afternoon round, the grass had grown enough to allow the ball to stop near the hole. I know because I tried a few test putts the second round.

[Carr Harris]

Reading this I was reminded how Seve Ballesteros had set up the 17th hole @ Valderrama for the 1997 Ryder Cup and how Tom Lehman's remarks somewhat mirrored your own

The members of the American Ryder Cup team haven't been practicing the 17th hole at Valderrama so much as they've been trying to make sense of it.

There is a thick, distracting strip of rough, growing like weeds in the middle of the fairway 290 yards from the tee. "What you should want to see is people going for the green in two," said Tiger Woods.

Tom Lehman said: "I never like a par-5 where you hit driver, sand wedge, sand wedge."

Obviously the hole was only set up that way for the event and not permanantly, but your title reminded me of that.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Carr,
There isn't that strip of rough at Callaway. Sounds like Tim pounded one out there pretty good, maybe 300 yards, and didn't want to tempt fate with a 240 yard drop&stop approach shot, ergo, the two gap wedges. 

[Matthew Sander]

Short par 4 with a forced lay up off the tee (6 iron or so) followed up by a mid (long iron or hybrid for some) to carry a hazard to the green. I remember one egregious example where the layup was due to consecutive ponds separated by a strip of turf no more than 15 or 20 feet. This silly hole was a part of what was an otherwise interesting thoughtful layout. SHENANIGANS!

[JNC Lyon]

If one is in the middle of the fairway and blocked out by trees, I declare shenanigans!

"Hey Farva, what's that place you like to eat with the mozzarella sticks and all the goofy sh*t on the walls?"

John

What if the fairway is 70 yards wide?

Ciao

I guess it would be easy free me to say, "oh, whoops, I guess I forgot about that one."  Indeed, lone trees can occasionally create interesting centerline hazards on holes with enough width.  However, I will try to defend my original position.  I believe trees have no place as hazards on golf courses.  They are fluky (remind me which architect said that) and unexciting.  When one is blocked by a tree, one is forced unconditionally to hit a certain type of shot.  They limit recovery options and stifle imagination.  A bunker, mound, hollow, or even a creek acts as a better centerline hazard for approach shots.  A player can still find the green with a well-struck, well-played shot with non-tree hazards.  However, if there is a centerline tree to deal with, there is no guarantee that a well-struck and well-played shot will meet with a good result.

I believe a tree's purpose on a golf course is to frame rather than direct golf holes.  If a player is forced to deal with a tree, it should be because he has a hit a bad shot outside of the normal playing angles of the golf hole.

[jonathan_becker]

John,

When I agreed with you, I was thinking along your lines as well. 

If you've ever played Firestone South, you know what I'm talking about.  You can hit it right down the middle and have overhanging branches in your direct line to the green.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

Are you sure it was Tilly, not Flynn? At Huntingdon Valley? Or is it the Tilly variation on a theme by Flynn?

Tilly wrote about it in concept.

Flynn came very close with C-2 at Huntingdon Valley. Moreso today than yesteryear, however.

So long as the hole is 4 and half inches across - there are no shenanigans. Play the shot in front of you as best you can. Let your opponent do the same and after 18 holes, you'll have a match.

Tim:

I wonder how you'd handle the 2nd Hole at Galen Hall. The second shot drops over 100 feet and it's possible to roll a very short club a very significant distance. Sounds like you may have faced the same situation. You picked Lob Wedge. What if you had punched a very soft 4-iron and let it roll?

Did you consider any non-full shots with different trajectories or did you immediately pull the LW because it was the shortest club in your bag?

[JNC Lyon]

John,

When I agreed with you, I was thinking along your lines as well. 

If you've ever played Firestone South, you know what I'm talking about.  You can hit it right down the middle and have overhanging branches in your direct line to the green.

Thanks for the heads up on Firestone South.  That course is first on my list of courses that I do not need to play.

My home course has that same problem in spots.  To make matters worse, most of the fairways are under 30 yards wide, so tree blockages are obligatory.

[Garland Bayley]

...
So long as the hole is 4 and half inches across - there are no shenanigans. Play the shot in front of you as best you can. Let your opponent do the same and after 18 holes, you'll have a match.
...

Sorry Kyle, but you are advocating the death of golf. Might as well make every hole have a 200 yard carry with no other option. You perhaps keyed in on the gap wedge second shot I mentioned. That is not the problem. The problem is the forced carry to the green with at least a five iron for me. There are lots of golfers that couldn't make the shot with any club. The club in question adopted the practice of taking your penalty stroke and then walking around the hazard through the forest to drop on the other side.

[Kyle Harris]

...
So long as the hole is 4 and half inches across - there are no shenanigans. Play the shot in front of you as best you can. Let your opponent do the same and after 18 holes, you'll have a match.
...

Sorry Kyle, but you are advocating the death of golf. Might as well make every hole have a 200 yard carry with no other option. You perhaps keyed in on the gap wedge second shot I mentioned. That is not the problem. The problem is the forced carry to the green with at least a five iron for me. There are lots of golfers that couldn't make the shot with any club. The club in question adopted the practice of taking your penalty stroke and then walking around the hazard through the forest to drop on the other side.

I'm not advocating the death of golf.

Your example is hyperbole. I think we can reach an agreement that there are a series of shots that define "golf skill" and I think we can agree that overcoming the occasional oddball golf hole (Tim's shenanigans) should be within that skill set.

Making EVERY hole any one thing is the death of golf, for sure - but that is very far from the point I'm trying to make.

[Garland Bayley]

...
So long as the hole is 4 and half inches across - there are no shenanigans. Play the shot in front of you as best you can. Let your opponent do the same and after 18 holes, you'll have a match.
...

Sorry Kyle, but you are advocating the death of golf. Might as well make every hole have a 200 yard carry with no other option. You perhaps keyed in on the gap wedge second shot I mentioned. That is not the problem. The problem is the forced carry to the green with at least a five iron for me. There are lots of golfers that couldn't make the shot with any club. The club in question adopted the practice of taking your penalty stroke and then walking around the hazard through the forest to drop on the other side.

I'm not advocating the death of golf.

Your example is hyperbole. I think we can reach an agreement that there are a series of shots that define "golf skill" and I think we can agree that overcoming the occasional oddball golf hole (Tim's shenanigans) should be within that skill set.

Making EVERY hole any one thing is the death of golf, for sure - but that is very far from the point I'm trying to make.

Not sure what you mean by my example is hyperbole. The example hole I gave was real. If every course had one of them, what is probably golf's  biggest demographic (boomers) would seldom be able to finish the round. As big a golf nut as I am, I chose not to go back even though the green few was severely discounted. I do go there now that the hole has been fixed.

[Kyle Harris]

...
So long as the hole is 4 and half inches across - there are no shenanigans. Play the shot in front of you as best you can. Let your opponent do the same and after 18 holes, you'll have a match.
...

Sorry Kyle, but you are advocating the death of golf. Might as well make every hole have a 200 yard carry with no other option. You perhaps keyed in on the gap wedge second shot I mentioned. That is not the problem. The problem is the forced carry to the green with at least a five iron for me. There are lots of golfers that couldn't make the shot with any club. The club in question adopted the practice of taking your penalty stroke and then walking around the hazard through the forest to drop on the other side.

I'm not advocating the death of golf.

Your example is hyperbole. I think we can reach an agreement that there are a series of shots that define "golf skill" and I think we can agree that overcoming the occasional oddball golf hole (Tim's shenanigans) should be within that skill set.

Making EVERY hole any one thing is the death of golf, for sure - but that is very far from the point I'm trying to make.

Not sure what you mean by my example is hyperbole. The example hole I gave was real. If every course had one of them, what is probably golf's  biggest demographic (boomers) would seldom be able to finish the round. As big a golf nut as I am, I chose not to go back even though the green few was severely discounted. I do go there now that the hole has been fixed.

You said "Why not make every hole have a 200 yard forced carry."

That's hyperbole to me, or argument from the absurd.

[Garland Bayley]

...
So long as the hole is 4 and half inches across - there are no shenanigans. Play the shot in front of you as best you can. Let your opponent do the same and after 18 holes, you'll have a match.
...

Sorry Kyle, but you are advocating the death of golf. Might as well make every hole have a 200 yard carry with no other option. You perhaps keyed in on the gap wedge second shot I mentioned. That is not the problem. The problem is the forced carry to the green with at least a five iron for me. There are lots of golfers that couldn't make the shot with any club. The club in question adopted the practice of taking your penalty stroke and then walking around the hazard through the forest to drop on the other side.

I'm not advocating the death of golf.

Your example is hyperbole. I think we can reach an agreement that there are a series of shots that define "golf skill" and I think we can agree that overcoming the occasional oddball golf hole (Tim's shenanigans) should be within that skill set.

Making EVERY hole any one thing is the death of golf, for sure - but that is very far from the point I'm trying to make.

Not sure what you mean by my example is hyperbole. The example hole I gave was real. If every course had one of them, what is probably golf's  biggest demographic (boomers) would seldom be able to finish the round. As big a golf nut as I am, I chose not to go back even though the green few was severely discounted. I do go there now that the hole has been fixed.

You said "Why not make every hole have a 200 yard forced carry."

That's hyperbole to me, or argument from the absurd.

That's not an example, that's a hypothetical. You're the one with the hyperbole. All holes are acceptable, just play them! I declare that to be some kind of Shenanigans! What's your agenda Kyle?

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