[Kyle Harris]

...
So long as the hole is 4 and half inches across - there are no shenanigans. Play the shot in front of you as best you can. Let your opponent do the same and after 18 holes, you'll have a match.
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Sorry Kyle, but you are advocating the death of golf. Might as well make every hole have a 200 yard carry with no other option. You perhaps keyed in on the gap wedge second shot I mentioned. That is not the problem. The problem is the forced carry to the green with at least a five iron for me. There are lots of golfers that couldn't make the shot with any club. The club in question adopted the practice of taking your penalty stroke and then walking around the hazard through the forest to drop on the other side.

I'm not advocating the death of golf.

Your example is hyperbole. I think we can reach an agreement that there are a series of shots that define "golf skill" and I think we can agree that overcoming the occasional oddball golf hole (Tim's shenanigans) should be within that skill set.

Making EVERY hole any one thing is the death of golf, for sure - but that is very far from the point I'm trying to make.

Not sure what you mean by my example is hyperbole. The example hole I gave was real. If every course had one of them, what is probably golf's  biggest demographic (boomers) would seldom be able to finish the round. As big a golf nut as I am, I chose not to go back even though the green few was severely discounted. I do go there now that the hole has been fixed.

You said "Why not make every hole have a 200 yard forced carry."

That's hyperbole to me, or argument from the absurd.

That's not an example, that's a hypothetical. You're the one with the hyperbole. All holes are acceptable, just play them! I declare that to be some kind of Shenanigans! What's your agenda Kyle?

Yes, it's a hypothetical too.

"A hyperbolic hypothecical," said Harris. Historically, he had helped himself to such hypotheticals but today Harris harried Garland, the harbinger of hyperbole.

[Thomas McQuillan]

If my ball is positioned beneath the hole and I strike a putt that gets to the hole that then rolls back downhill to my original position or farther.....

Has anyone else had a putt played across the slope of the green that hits the bottom edge of the hole that defies gravity and lip uphill?? SHENANIGANS!! I would rather if it missed the hole completely or do what it was supposed to do and just go in after hitting the hole.

[Sean_A]

If one is in the middle of the fairway and blocked out by trees, I declare shenanigans!

"Hey Farva, what's that place you like to eat with the mozzarella sticks and all the goofy sh*t on the walls?"

John

What if the fairway is 70 yards wide?

Ciao

I guess it would be easy free me to say, "oh, whoops, I guess I forgot about that one."  Indeed, lone trees can occasionally create interesting centerline hazards on holes with enough width.  However, I will try to defend my original position.  I believe trees have no place as hazards on golf courses.  They are fluky (remind me which architect said that) and unexciting.  When one is blocked by a tree, one is forced unconditionally to hit a certain type of shot.  They limit recovery options and stifle imagination.  A bunker, mound, hollow, or even a creek acts as a better centerline hazard for approach shots.  A player can still find the green with a well-struck, well-played shot with non-tree hazards.  However, if there is a centerline tree to deal with, there is no guarantee that a well-struck and well-played shot will meet with a good result.

I believe a tree's purpose on a golf course is to frame rather than direct golf holes.  If a player is forced to deal with a tree, it should be because he has a hit a bad shot outside of the normal playing angles of the golf hole.

John

I generally agree with you, but generally speaking, trees are badly mis-used on golf courses.  I have no problem with a lovely specimen tree being part of the strategy of the hole if there is enough room to play the game.  The key is to try and keep trees to singles (showcase their beauty) or small cops of birches etc.  Trees lining fairways isn't terribly clever and if it must be the case, they should be miles back.  There are few things worse than coming across a wall of non-distinguishable green foliage.  So many times I see courses in England which are very well designed and could be superb parkland courses - if nearly all the trees were taken out.  Wonderful specimen trees buried in stupid Douglas Firs etc etc. 

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

Sean,

I agree with your analysis.  It is imperative to single out the best trees and eliminate the bad ones.  I just think that trees provide a great backdrop to golf courses.  Could you imagine Yeamans Hall without the old oaks draped with Spanish moss.  The trees there give the course texture, character, and beauty.  They determine the atmosphere of the golf course without interfering with the lines of play.  To me, the trees at Yeamans play the perfect role of trees on golf courses.

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim:

I wonder how you'd handle the 2nd Hole at Galen Hall. The second shot drops over 100 feet and it's possible to roll a very short club a very significant distance. Sounds like you may have faced the same situation. You picked Lob Wedge. What if you had punched a very soft 4-iron and let it roll?

Did you consider any non-full shots with different trajectories or did you immediately pull the LW because it was the shortest club in your bag?

Kyle--

The layup you suggest is imprudent to the point of impossibility at the hole in question at Callaway Gardens.  The fairways yesterday were dormant, sparse brown bermuda--very, very firm and fast.  From the 150 marker, the ground slopes away toward the water that fronts the green.  If anyone had tried to lay up with that punch 4-iron, their balls would have found the water.  The only way to keep the layup on dry land within 150 yards of the green is to hit a wedge or short iron, depending on how far back you are off the tee, in such fairway and rough conditions.  The hole at Galen Hall, judging by the picture on the club's website and the Google Maps view, looks much easier than the hole at Callaway Gardens.

Jim Kennedy--

I wish going for the green had been a viable option on that hole, but there was effectively no room for error.  I don't think the 3 wood Hunter Mahan hit on 13 at TPC Scottsdale on Sunday would have held that green from 240 yards out.  The only play was to lay up, and with a gap wedge, for me.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
The golf course was built 35/40 years ago when 250 yards was a sizeable drive, so there really wasn't much of a choice at that time about laying up or going for it. It seems like you hit a long drive that didn't quite give you a reasonable shot to a green where the only safe miss for a 3-wood would be in the l. bunker or long left, and you could have taken a different approach for the lay-up if you were playing it in season and not forced to take the non-existent stopping power of dormant Bermuda over hilly terrain into consideration .

I wouldn't say that it's a hole anyone would fall in love with, but it needs to be judged in context, i.e. when it was built/how it plays for the majority of golfers, and when there's grass on the fairway.

[Kyle Harris]

Tim:

So putt.

[Link Walsh]

Tim,
The golf course was built 35/40 years ago when 250 yards was a sizeable drive, so there really wasn't much of a choice at that time about laying up or going for it. It seems like you hit a long drive that didn't quite give you a reasonable shot to a green where the only safe miss for a 3-wood would be in the l. bunker or long left, and you could have taken a different approach for the lay-up if you were playing it in season and not forced to take the non-existent stopping power of dormant Bermuda over hilly terrain into consideration .

I wouldn't say that it's a hole anyone would fall in love with, but it needs to be judged in context, i.e. when it was built/how it plays for the majority of golfers, and when there's grass on the fairway.




That's a good point on the tee shot issue.  It is a really nice tee shot for "normal hitting" people.  I actually have a picture of it up on my wall in my room.  I remember at one point when they had the old Buick tournament there that they were talking about adding about 400 yards of length to the course to keep it up to date.  Glad they didn't have to, because the course is pretty awesome the way it is. 

[Mark Molyneux]

Shenanigan! Anytime an OB line is established on the golf course I'm thinking Shenanigan. The idea that it's a safety issue might hold some water but directing the play on a long hole by declaring that you can't play off another fairway just isn't a good design concept. A medium length par 2 second hole at the old Eagle Lodge had a real "course boundary" OB to the left for the entire length of the hole and tehre was a "local rule" OB to the right in the landing area so that players couldn't play down the adjoining hole to shorten the hole as it bent to the right. That "next fairway over" play also simplified the approach to the green.

Plant some trees to block that line or place a hazard near the rightward line that changes the equation but don't make the same portion of the course okay for one hole but OB for another. I know about delays caused when players are hitting in different directions from essentially the same spot and I understand the liabilities involved but... don't make it OB. Nobody wants to play down a tunnel. 

There's another otherwise nice track in the area that features a bending rightward par 5 that's shortened by firing the tee ball back up the preceding hole's fairway. It's a problem they probably will want to address and I sincerely hope it isn't with an artificial and arbitrary placement of white stakes.

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