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Kris Spence

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Impact of Golf Carts?
« on: March 01, 2010, 06:57:11 PM »
Following is a statement by Perry Dye,

"Obviously, I was lucky my father introduced me to golf at a young age. He was convinced that the motorized golf cart would mean the end of golf. He felt that the absence of caddies would result in the deterioration of the game because young people, who served as caddies, wouldn’t get an introduction to the game"

My father and father in law both caddied during their youth, neither played the game much as adults due to tough times but I have to agree with what Pete is saying here.  Another example of the American Way shooting itself in the foot?


Bill_McBride

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 06:59:48 PM »
.......plus you have to deal with cart paths and turf damage.   >:(

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 07:03:33 PM »
I am horrified when I see aerials of courses in housing estates with 300 yard drives between houses to get to the next hole surrounded by yet more condos. Without carts these places would never get built.
Cave Nil Vino

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2010, 07:27:39 PM »
Kris,
He couldn't have been that wrong, fewer kids are playing and all the caddies are adults. Go figure.  :)

But I don't think he could have foreseen the drain on players that all the 'new' sports (like soccer) would have on golf, and the emphasis on being 'the best' turned a lot of kids into single-sport players. Never mind the video game revolution and all the players lost to the generation of non-golfing Hippies who turned into non-golfing parents. As these boomers age they are taking up golf so perhaps they'll take their grand kids out.  ;D   
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:29:39 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Moore II

Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2010, 07:41:58 PM »
I think its a function of economics as well. How many small, public courses had caddy programs? I think there are just as many caddy programs out there, but percentage wise, they are far fewer. Am I correct here? Not saying I don't think Pete Dye was wrong, however.

Mark Chaplin: You are correct, courses like that are terrible. Though I can say that I have seen some courses that do not have houses with really long walks as well and a few housing courses that don't have very long walks (both courses at Foxfire come to mind, only one long walk on one and two on the other)

Mark Molyneux

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 07:52:37 PM »
One obvious impact of the golf cart has been the simplification of shots out of moderate to heavy rough. When carts  are confined to the rough and all the traffic seems to be headed toward the green, the rough tends to lie down in that same direction. Hence, more flyers but far fewer awful lies where the ball has nestled down.

Carts bring in the money though. If you need to know about the "advantages" of carts over caddies, follow the money.

With a GPS, about the only things a cart can't do: read a green and calm the player down after a bad shot.

John Moore II

Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 07:57:36 PM »
One obvious impact of the golf cart has been the simplification of shots out of moderate to heavy rough. When carts  are confined to the rough and all the traffic seems to be headed toward the green, the rough tends to lie down in that same direction. Hence, more flyers but far fewer awful lies where the ball has nestled down.

Carts bring in the money though. If you need to know about the "advantages" of carts over caddies, follow the money.

With a GPS, about the only things a cart can't do: read a green and calm the player down after a bad shot.

It depends. Given enough use, I would say caddies are a bigger money maker. But you have to work it in such a way that they are 'commission-only' employees, that way you don't have to pay insurance and such. Caddies could be a much larger money maker, I could do the math, but don't feel like it, if they were used as often as carts at a given facility.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 07:59:49 PM »

Are you trying to get on Melvyn's good side?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

John Moore II

Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 08:06:58 PM »

Are you trying to get on Melvyn's good side?


Nope. I'm telling the truth. $20ish a seat for a cart, $40ish par bag for a caddy. You tell me which can make the most money if used the same amount. Forecaddies are great for a club too, boost the price per round, little overhead and pull in the cash.

Bill Rocco

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2010, 08:07:08 PM »
I would be willing to bet the turf damage outweighs the benefits to carts aesthetically and financially...BUT carts allow an older generation continue to play golf and stay active

jeffwarne

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2010, 08:17:05 PM »
I think its a function of economics as well. How many small, public courses had caddy programs? I think there are just as many caddy programs out there, but percentage wise, they are far fewer. Am I correct here? Not saying I don't think Pete Dye was wrong, however.

Mark Chaplin: You are correct, courses like that are terrible. Though I can say that I have seen some courses that do not have houses with really long walks as well and a few housing courses that don't have very long walks (both courses at Foxfire come to mind, only one long walk on one and two on the other)

I would guess that there are MORE caddie programs now than thee were in the 70's and 80's.

This logic would say soccer or basketball can't grow because there are not enough kids reffing the games.

I'd say there are more kids playing today than the 70's, just less grownups and too many courses
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2010, 08:27:18 PM »

Are you trying to get on Melvyn's good side?


Nope. I'm telling the truth. $20ish a seat for a cart, $40ish par bag for a caddy. You tell me which can make the most money if used the same amount. Forecaddies are great for a club too, boost the price per round, little overhead and pull in the cash.

I'd love to see the math on how a club could make money on caddies if competing with carts
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Moore II

Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 08:35:53 PM »

Are you trying to get on Melvyn's good side?


Nope. I'm telling the truth. $20ish a seat for a cart, $40ish par bag for a caddy. You tell me which can make the most money if used the same amount. Forecaddies are great for a club too, boost the price per round, little overhead and pull in the cash.

I'd love to see the math on how a club could make money on caddies if competing with carts

It would only work if the club was walking/caddies only. Yeah, if they had carts competing with caddies, it would never work. But if caddies were the only option, like do caddies mandatory before 1pm like a lot of places do with carts, they'd make more money.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 08:44:48 PM »

Are you trying to get on Melvyn's good side?


Nope. I'm telling the truth. $20ish a seat for a cart, $40ish par bag for a caddy. You tell me which can make the most money if used the same amount. Forecaddies are great for a club too, boost the price per round, little overhead and pull in the cash.

I'd love to see the math on how a club could make money on caddies if competing with carts

It would only work if the club was walking/caddies only. Yeah, if they had carts competing with caddies, it would never work. But if caddies were the only option, like do caddies mandatory before 1pm like a lot of places do with carts, they'd make more money.

Paying a qualified full time caddymaster, maintaining a staff of 20-50 on demand qualified and trained caddies (and charging enough and paying enough)
make profits a very unlikely proposition.
The operations I know that use caddie companies spend far more than I do only paying a caddiemaster and letting the members pay the caddies directly
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2010, 08:58:17 PM »
 :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Carts have beome a neccessity at most clubs , as both the aging of the golf population and the need for revenue has limited walking to a great extent....we've had the caddy argument here many times ...but a society that coddles almost all kids to excess has all but eliminated caddy programs save the Evans Scholars...a great organization in the midwest

Don't know if it's the proliferation of ridiculous lawsuits, or the threat of same that has basically outlawed kids working at the golf course anymore. Not to sound like Abe Lincoln but we were carrying bags (singles) at Woodcrest CC at age 11...and walking or riding our bikes across town to get the cash.....this would be tantamount to child abuse in this day and age but we absolutely loved our job, and had a ball learning how to deal with life at this tender age....of course this job was most of our second, having had paper routes first at 8 or 9 .....what a shame this is no longer an option..the kids are missing out
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 09:23:28 PM by archie_struthers »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2010, 10:48:08 PM »

Are you trying to get on Melvyn's good side?


Nope. I'm telling the truth. $20ish a seat for a cart, $40ish par bag for a caddy. You tell me which can make the most money if used the same amount. Forecaddies are great for a club too, boost the price per round, little overhead and pull in the cash.

I'd love to see the math on how a club could make money on caddies if competing with carts

It would only work if the club was walking/caddies only. Yeah, if they had carts competing with caddies, it would never work. But if caddies were the only option, like do caddies mandatory before 1pm like a lot of places do with carts, they'd make more money.

Paying a qualified full time caddymaster, maintaining a staff of 20-50 on demand qualified and trained caddies (and charging enough and paying enough)
make profits a very unlikely proposition.
The operations I know that use caddie companies spend far more than I do only paying a caddiemaster and letting the members pay the caddies directly

Jeff, have you ever had a caddy get hurt working?  Was there workers compensation involved?  Welcome to the world of the contractor! 

Will Peterson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 12:28:16 AM »

Carts have beome a neccessity at most clubs , as both the aging of the golf population and the need for revenue has limited walking to a great extent

I agree with the revenue part, but the I don't think the aging of the golf population has anything to do with the decrease in walking.  At my home club the majority of walkers are over the age of 40, most retirees over 50, and there next to no under 30's who walk.  In the UK everybody walks and the golfing population is just as old as in the US.  I think it is the "lazying" of the population.  Go to many easy to walk muni's or semiprivate courses, they're full of fat guys in carts who are concerned more with drinking than golfing.  The perfect example of this "lazying" is carts around tees.  There will be a cart path near the tee, 20-30 feet, but people will park their cart next to the tee.  If 20 ft is too far to walk, how would you ever convince them to walk 9 or 18 holes?

I read "When War Played Through" not too long ago.  It is about golf during WWII, and contained a story of how many golf groups marketed golf as a way to stay fit on the home front.  I wonder how that arguement would play today?

Carts are the prime example of game of golf vs business of golf.  What is good for one is rarely good for the other. 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 01:30:32 AM »
... I don't think the aging of the golf population has anything to do with the decrease in walking. ... I think it is the "lazying" of the population.  ...
Carts are the prime example of game of golf vs business of golf.  What is good for one is rarely good for the other. 

BINGO! We have a winner! People choose to ride a cart. Few have to ride a cart. In fact, I bet many of those that choose to ride a cart eventually have to ride a cart, just because they chose to ride a cart earlier. I have read stories of Drs. prescribing walking while playing golf as a therapy for the problems of being sedentary.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 01:36:28 AM »
As far as the impact of golf carts on golf courses, I think it is far more than most that claim it is a profit center are willing to admit.

Also, it seems to have a corrupting influence on the mental facilities of those riding carts. When you complain to a cart rider that the cart paths take too much maintenance cost, they say fine, do away with the cart paths, there are courses that allow carts that don't have cart paths. ???
???
Where???
Pukwanah, SD??? How is that relevant???

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 08:24:50 AM »
I bet if you count the number of 50-70 years olds playing golf right now not that many caddied.

I think of the ones I'm close to: my father, my uncle who taught me the game, and the guys they play with that I've played with often.  NONE of those gentleman caddied in their youths.

So while I agree that the lack of caddy programs decreases kids' exposure, I do not agree that the lack of caddy programs is a major contributor to kids not taking up the game.

Plenty of kids who didn't caddy used to take up the game.  There are just so many more alternatives today.

I know many adults who play playstation or Xbox, etc.  How many of our fathers did that?

I think the dramatic increase in children's events has more to do with it.  When I was a kid I played two Little League games a week and NEVER had little league on Saturday.  Meaning my dad was free to play. Now kid's schedules are usually packed on Saturdays and men like myself have a harder time skipping the kid's games and playing golf. 



We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2010, 09:24:34 AM »

What was that about the impact of carts ::)



Golf, but is it how we want to play it?

Melvyn

PS This hole a 245 yard Par 6 has the highest number of suicide, well so the club say but not all leave a note ;)


Carl Johnson

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2010, 10:47:14 AM »

Carts have beome a neccessity at most clubs , as both the aging of the golf population and the need for revenue has limited walking to a great extent

I agree with the revenue part, but the I don't think the aging of the golf population has anything to do with the decrease in walking.  At my home club the majority of walkers are over the age of 40, most retirees over 50, and there next to no under 30's who walk.  In the UK everybody walks and the golfing population is just as old as in the US.  I think it is the "lazying" of the population.  Go to many easy to walk muni's or semiprivate courses, they're full of fat guys in carts who are concerned more with drinking than golfing.  The perfect example of this "lazying" is carts around tees.  There will be a cart path near the tee, 20-30 feet, but people will park their cart next to the tee.  If 20 ft is too far to walk, how would you ever convince them to walk 9 or 18 holes?

I read "When War Played Through" not too long ago.  It is about golf during WWII, and contained a story of how many golf groups marketed golf as a way to stay fit on the home front.  I wonder how that arguement would play today?

Carts are the prime example of game of golf vs business of golf.  What is good for one is rarely good for the other. 
My experience mirrors Will's.  In terms of distance from the green exit to the next tee, my Carolina GC course is a very easy walk, although the hills can be a challenge if you're not at least in fair shape.  (Moreover, as part of Kris Spence's intelligent rehab of the course a couple of years ago, the cart paths were reduced and pushed into less obtrusive positions, making the walking experience even more enjoyable.)  We have lots of walkers at our club, old and young, although I'm still surprised at the relative number of young players, 20's and 30's, who do opt for carts.  I'm not sure if they're lazy, though, or it's just the way they learned the game.  At age 68, I prefer to walk (and now carry my little 8-club bag), not only for fitness, but because it gives me a better feel (such as I have) for the game.  Driving up to the ball in a cart, then jumping out and hitting, is tough, sort of like popping out of the subway and taking a while to get oriented.  I don't have as good a feel for where I am and where I ought to try to go as I do when approaching the next shot at a reasonable pace on foot.  Back to Will's thoughts again, and his reference to "guys in carts who are concerned more with drinking than golfing."  That's where I think carts have led to a deterioration of the game.  Riders, drinking or not, often approach the game with less respect for its traditions than walkers.  This isn't true of every rider, of course, but to pick up a thought from the tread about the 16th at the now-appropriately-named "Waste Management" Phoenix Open, I think carts have contributed to the kind of golf spectators who revel in that atmosphere.

archie_struthers

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Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2010, 11:13:49 AM »
 :D ;D ;)


Revenue is the primary driver of cart poliicies, laziness or culture probably second .  Architecture contributes in some way as newer courses tend to be less walker friendly.

However the golf cart definitely helps some of our senior citizens play the game , as they may have limited mobility...even as abhorrent as they may be to some here, they do serve a purpose.

Most of the golfers have been weaned on the golf cart , particularly the younger players.

As to the children's activities....there is no doubt the level of play (supervised) is really different than the 70.s and 80's whern we all played against our neighboring towns that "we" organized , not our parents or a supervisor.   I'm constantly amazed at people drivng all over the East Coast to olay weekend tournaments ....it's way different

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2010, 11:51:41 AM »
    You all seem to ignore a very important fact - carts are much cheaper than caddies.  Carts run around $30 per round, caddies $60.  That's $3,000 per year for an active golfer.  Not chicken feed.  Money counts!  And the answer isn't to raise cart fees.  An extra $60 per round (after green fees or dues are paid) is a lot of money.  For many, too much.  And, at most private clubs, pull carts aren't allowed and carrying is discouraged or too much work for most older players.  Sorry, purists, carts aren't a necessary evil; they're necessary for mass enjoyment.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Impact of Golf Carts?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2010, 12:08:06 PM »

Its not about money, its not about age, its about playing a game that has for centuries has been a walking game.

Play cart golf, but remember its cart golf because when you watch The Open you will see GOLFERS Walking, honouring their commitment to the Game.

Golf is all about walking, don't walk, then you miss the full experience of the game. 

Melvyn

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