Sick of the 16th

[Jason Topp]

Boring hole in the middle of an interesting stretch
Gallery of drunken idiots

I have spent a day there and had a fantastic time, but primarily because it was so disconnected with any notion I have of the game of golf that it felt like a South Park spoof of my college (ASU), my undergraduate degree (psychology) and the game.  The impression only continues when fast forwarding through the Golf Channel commercial fest where they actually treat the hole with reverence.

True story - the corporate boxes used to provide unlimited beer.  In an effort to gain control they instituted a policy a few years ago of handing out punch cards limiting beer intake to 12 beers per person.  Of course, it was not at all difficult to exceed that limit because some people kept it in single figures.

Another True story - I stood behind the tee in 1987 watching play as the final five groups went through  - primarily because it allowed me to watch both 15 and 16.  My friend and I were the only people doing do.

[Gary Slatter]

Jason, was that 1997 or 87.  I was at the first couple Phoenix Opens at TPC and thought it was later. 

I think the hole is actually a very good par three, often requiring a draw (inturn or outurn in curling?). 

The whole event is a bit odd and does bring a different look to the PGA Tour- the Thunderbirds running it are great for the community and have created a huge event for the 100,000 non-golfers living in that area (the golfers are playing not watching).

I'm sick of the treatment the 16th gets on GC, but not the hole.

[PCCraig]

While I personally find zero interest in the Phoenix Open in general, the 16th is really done with best intentions and in good fun. It's one of the biggest social events for the area and, as mentioned before, the Thunderbirds do a ton for local charities. A hole like this every week would be overkill, but once a year we should be able to handle a frat party atmosphere on one par-3 in AZ.

[Carl Rogers]

Mr. Craig,
You are probably right ..... but.....
If the game is to "grow" (we all support the "growth" of the game , right?) aren't we going to have encourage and get used to this kind of event?

[Martin Toal]

Maybe it is just a way of keeping all the idiots in one place. Not really in keeping with the best traditions of the game, but probably tolerable on one otherwise rather unremarkable hole.

[JNC Lyon]

Pat Craig,

How much has the game grown since holes like the 16th at TPC Scottsdale became such a spectacle?  If such a hole constitutes "growing the game," then it is growing a game with which I am not familiar.

[Tim Bert]

The fans like it. The vast majority of the players at least pretend to like it - perhaps they really do but I dont know any of them personally. I don't think every course needs a 16th at the TPC but I think it works here and it seems to be a good time for almost everyone involved.

I think the goods outweigh the bads.  Maybe they should host a Ryder Cup there!

[PCCraig]

Pat Craig,

How much has the game grown since holes like the 16th at TPC Scottsdale became such a spectacle?  If such a hole constitutes "growing the game," then it is growing a game with which I am not familiar.

I'm for "growing the game" as much as the next guy, but at the end of the day not everything that relates to golf has to "grow" it. I think it's hard for us golf purists to stomach but when you take it at face value, which is a big ol' party surrounding a boring golf hole...it's completly harmless. (Esp. considering the profits go to charity!).

Perhaps a better question. What "grows the game" more? The 16th at Pheonix where lets say 50% of the people there are there to party and don't care about golf but are contributing to a charity through beer sales (the best kind IMO) but may watch a couple shots and think about heading to a range sometime? Or the Northern Trust Open held at a world-class course where tournament organizers raise one-day ticket prices to $50 and is so sparsley attended that it was a waste of time and money to even bother putting the ropes up?

Of course both have their subject charities but isn't the goal of these events to hold a fun event and raise money for the local communities?

[Rick Shefchik]

Don't you sometimes find yourself wondering if PGA tour golf is heading in this direction for all its events, and if that would really be the downfall of the game? The constant drone from the masses on 16 who never shut up is no more distracting than street noise or a flock of loud birds, and the louder the drone becomes, the more difficult it is for some drunken "You da man" or "Noonan!" types to pierce the golfer's consciousness in his takeaway.

Every time I'm at a tournament I'm amazed that 10,000 people can remain silent at the same time, out of respect for a player's concentration. The same people would be screaming at a pitcher or a free-throw shooter or a quarterback attempting to do something that requires every bit as much concentration -- and the pitcher, the free-throw shooter and the quarterback would never pay the slightest attention. At a golf tournament, I can't count the number of times I've had the thought that someone was about to shout something in a player's backswing. It almost never happens, but it's a social convention that may not be able to hold together much longer. If that's the case, we can blame the 16th at Phoenix, but eventually I think there's a good possibility that the entire game might imitate it.

I'm not saying that will be a positive development. It just seems like more than a remote possibility.

[Mike Cirba]

Yesterday with the tournament on the televison and her in the other room, Jenna thought I was watching the US-Canada Hockey game which she had heard me earlier talk to my dad about on the phone.

When she came in and saw it was golf she was very surprised.   

I'm not sure what that says, but I think there's a fine line that's getting very blurry.

[Tim Nugent]

"The PGA Tour - It's FANtastic".  Hey, I remember going the PHX Open at Phoenix Country Club and hardly anyone was there.  Now they rake in over $6m on one hole alone?  Say what you want (looks like it infringes on Purests sensibilities) but a lot of good can be done with that kinda dough.
 Jason (fellow alum and psych major), I have always  held that a demanding (mentally or physically) golf hole late in a round can weigh heavily in the mind of a player (kinda like knowing the Grim Reaper is out there, just waiting for you).  What say you?  Do you think knowing that this kind of unique pressure is coming affects players?

[Carl Johnson]

It's the principal reason I mostly ignore this tournament.  I know a lot of the pros have no practical choice but to play it, and some may even enjoy it.  There are lots of different sub-subcultures within the golf subculture.  This event caters to the beer drinkin', cart ridin', "you-da-man" set.  It's a counterbalance to the Masters, which in my book goes a little to far the other way.  I'm happy to let the Phoenicians have their fun one week a year.  I'm headed out to the course this Sunday afternoon to play my own game.

[Matthew Petersen]

I love the spectacle of the 16th, but only because it is--for now--unique. If other tournaments/holes started to emulate that atmosphere that would be a terrible thing, and a terrible failure--both for that tournament and for the game of golf generally. It's how unlike everything else on the rest of the tour it is that makes it so much fun. Also, frankly, it takes a pretty boring hole (play there in the summer when there are no stands or any other tournament indicators and it's really not much) and makes it into a solid part of a wonderful four hole closing stretch.

[Jason Topp]

Jason, was that 1997 or 87.  I was at the first couple Phoenix Opens at TPC and thought it was later. 

I think the hole is actually a very good par three, often requiring a draw (inturn or outurn in curling?). 

The whole event is a bit odd and does bring a different look to the PGA Tour- the Thunderbirds running it are great for the community and have created a huge event for the 100,000 non-golfers living in that area (the golfers are playing not watching).

I'm sick of the treatment the 16th gets on GC, but not the hole.

Gary - it definitely was 87.  Azinger won.  Your last sentence is probably more in line with my feelings.  I see it as a comedy but the Golf Channel treats it as if it is a venerated tradition.

[Jason Topp]

 Jason (fellow alum and psych major), I have always  held that a demanding (mentally or physically) golf hole late in a round can weigh heavily in the mind of a player (kinda like knowing the Grim Reaper is out there, just waiting for you).  What say you?  Do you think knowing that this kind of unique pressure is coming affects players?

Tim:  I agree that it is interesting from the perspective of imposing unique pressure.  I've got to think it does not have a ton of impact on the outcome of the tournament.  Most of the drunks have left for their superbowl party by the time the leaders have come through on Sunday.  It will be interesting to see whether the Sunday atmosphere is more festive this year given the change in date.

[Jay Flemma]

While I personally find zero interest in the Phoenix Open in general, the 16th is really done with best intentions and in good fun. It's one of the biggest social events for the area and, as mentioned before, the Thunderbirds do a ton for local charities. A hole like this every week would be overkill, but once a year we should be able to handle a frat party atmosphere on one par-3 in AZ.

The problem is television...there's an old adage in entertainment, "if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing," and already cheaper copycats have started to attempt to sprout up.  It's all part of the movement by some to dumb down golf in order to sell it to the casual fan.

[Wade Whitehead]

Pros who don't like playing in the atmosphere of the 16th shouldn't enter the event.

Viewers who don't like watching it shouldn't tune in.

Without the ruckus, what's the hole worth?  Not much, frankly.  The tournament doesn't just tolerate the noise.  They design, encourage, and promote it.

WW

[John Moore II]

I love the idea of playing golf in a football stadium. Get tons of people there. Ever think why the LPGA doesn't get people to attend their live events? Because its not a lot of fun. Best attended PGA Tour events? The ones with drama of golf (the majors and a few others) and the ones they turn into giant parties. The Greensboro event a little while back was a huge outdoor party, Neal Lancaster provided unlimited BBQ to all the players, beer was all around for fans, it was just a giant party. Now its calmed down and no one shows up. Maybe other events should learn a thing or two. $30 a ticket per day with unlimited draft beer for all. Now that would get attendance.