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Brett Hochstein

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2010, 12:52:51 PM »
Kevin,

Thanks a lot for posting these.  Besides the 16th/17th, you really do not get too many public views of the golf course.  As a student of design, I really appreciate being able to see and start to understand the rest of the course.  Great quality shots, btw.  My favorite is the 9th for its bunker scheme and the way it transitions into the dune--brilliant.

"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Scott Warren

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2010, 12:53:55 PM »
Kevin,

I got a thrill just looking at the pics. It must have been one of the days of your life. How would you describe the feeling leaving the property at the end of the day?

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2010, 03:33:05 PM »
Hey Scott,

The "Freemasonary of Golf"  thingy is copyrighted. Strong letter demanding huge damages to follow.  :)

Bob

Jason Topp

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2010, 04:47:46 PM »
Kevin:

Thanks for posting.  I do not remember seeing a hole by hole of the course before so I really enjoyed yours.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2010, 05:26:05 PM »
I agree the bunkering and its camo effect are brilliant, as is Mackenzie's ability to produce subtlety.  I don't know if you got a chance to see, but the sixth and eleventh greens are his best uses of subtlety on the course, in my opinion.

Jordan

A few questions back at you - if I may:

What is your favourite hole ?

What is your favourite sequence of holes ?

What is your favourite P5?

How many balls did you see in your time there end up in the back bunker on # 16 ?

What was the condition of the greens?   Did you see any effect of the nemitode?

Joel

It was late Oct and the greens were superb. They were every bit as good at those at Shinnecock / Fishers Island - probably the truest I putted on all trip

Kevin,

What line did you take off #17 tee and what was your result?

Jonathan

The photo is looking down on #13 and #14

I took driver and aimed at the trees - will my draw I wasn't worried about hitting one dead straight.  ;) I think we were playing downwind that day and if one is too far back - you have a very difficult shot over the Cypress'.

My playing partners may correct me but I dont recall anyone taking the significant riskier right side ?

Kevin,

Thanks a lot for posting these.  Besides the 16th/17th, you really do not get too many public views of the golf course.  As a student of design, I really appreciate being able to see and start to understand the rest of the course.  Great quality shots, btw.  My favorite is the 9th for its bunker scheme and the way it transitions into the dune--brilliant.

Brett

You get a nice view of #13 green / a bit of #14 and most certainly the 1st besides a sneak of the others you mentioned.

Scott Warren

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2010, 05:54:46 PM »
Hey Scott,

The "Freemasonary of Golf"  thingy is copyrighted. Strong letter demanding huge damages to follow.  :)

Bob

;D Payable in kummel, I hope?

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2010, 06:41:27 PM »
Bob - I'll expell Scott from Royal Cinque Ports for 24 hours and he can buy me a large kummel as a re admission fee.

Would you believe playing against Cambridge University on Saturday my friend purchased a round of kummels in the halfway hut and one of the uni boys "allegedly" asked for half a kummel. What is the world coming to?
Cave Nil Vino

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2010, 08:54:16 PM »
Kevin,

I got a thrill just looking at the pics. It must have been one of the days of your life. How would you describe the feeling leaving the property at the end of the day?

Scott

It was a golfing highlight not just of the trip but of a lifetime.

Lucky the photos and video I took will keep the memory fresh. I reviewed the later again on the weekend and it picked up a hell of a lot of the wind and crashing of waves. That's the thing about CPC the multitude of elements one experiences: the ambience to start....the cracking of golf balls in the woodland area.....and then the strong crashing of the ocean to finish. It's hard to describe.....

You walk off the 18th green and have that feeling in the pit of your stomach that you just dont want it to end. So - you walk around to the pro shop - have a bit of a spending spree  ;D....mingle in the car park as you just dont want to leave !!! As I said - I found it such a moving experience I can only think of my visits to TOC as being on a similar plane.

Solace was taken with lunch with the group at "the hut"...then after bidding my American pals farewell - I decided to quickly head up to Pasatiempo where I was fortunate to slip in a double Mackenzie shot in the PM

Things could have been worse.  8)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 08:59:01 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Jordan Wall

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2010, 08:58:07 PM »
I agree the bunkering and its camo effect are brilliant, as is Mackenzie's ability to produce subtlety.  I don't know if you got a chance to see, but the sixth and eleventh greens are his best uses of subtlety on the course, in my opinion.

Jordan

A few questions back at you - if I may:

What is your favourite hole ?
I loved four.  It is such a good hole yet so under the radar.  I remember thinking it must be a long carry over the left bunker, when in fact you can hit driver easily over them and into those on the right.  Its a great hole because if you want the flip wedge in you have to put it through the dry creek bed on the left and bunkers on the right.  The green is so good - I've said it before here, but the left side of that green actually breaks toward the back of the green.  Crazy!

Loved nine, love the first, and obviously thirteen and the three ocean holes.  And twelve as well.


What is your favourite sequence of holes ?

4-5-6 and 12-13-14-15-16-17.  12-13-14 is awesome as a three hole stretch, but does it get better than 15-16-17?  Only 6-7-8 at Pebble come close, in my opinion, from the courses I've been fortunate enough to see.  4-5-6 is underrated, as mentioned before with regards to the fourth.

What is your favourite P5?

5.  What a great golf hole.  I love challenging the bunker on the left and pulling it off, hitting the downslope and having 195ish into the green.  The bunkering is fantastic there, and the green is diabolical.

6 is really good as well, but I am long enough where I don't bother going over the bunker on the right.  Another great green, though.  10 has an underrated green.


How many balls did you see in your time there end up in the back bunker on # 16 ?

Zilch, nada, zero.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2010, 09:14:35 PM »
How many balls did you see in your time there end up in the back bunker on # 16 ?

Zilch, nada, zero.

I've got a photo to prove that it does happen and will post it later.

Short Story (if I can recall correctly):

I've teed off first and hit a career driver over the ocean with my draw and onto the back of the green. I dont carry a 3W so driver was the only option for me and we had a pretty strong cross breeze blowing.

Mike B steps up next - he's been hitting them pretty good all day and is tossing and turning as to what to hit.

He asks his caddy "Will I go over the back with a 3W ?"

Caddy "I've been caddying here for over 20 years and I have never had to rake the back bunkers. Never."

Mike B then selects said 3W and hits a pure shot dead straight at the flag. We all see it land on the green and bounce through to the back left bunker.

Silence.......

Mike B hands his club over - a short look is all he gives......

Sean and Steve then go for it as well but dont quite pull it off.

We troop off - Mikes caddie is sauntering well behind.

We get to the green Mike flops his bunker shot onto the green and picks up the rake and rakes the bunker himself muttering under his breath:

"And you still haven't had to rake them - cause I've done it for you......"

Steve Pozaric

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2010, 10:50:54 PM »
Thanks for sharing.  These bring back great memories from my one time there.

Steve Pozaric

Brett Hochstein

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2010, 06:13:28 AM »
Kevin,

As a former caddie myself, that story just makes me cringe in pain.  I personally cannot stand making a wrong decision with my golfer--it wrenches me emotionally.  But then to make tactical errors right after (slowfoot and not raking), I might as well have just stepped off into the Pacific.  Maybe that caddie just didn't care, but that is no way to represent your club or earn your tip.  Yeesh
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

James Bennett

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2010, 06:48:10 AM »
Lucky the photos .... I took will keep the memory fresh. ......... That's the thing about CPC the multitude of elements one experiences: the ambience to start....the cracking of golf balls in the woodland area.....and then the strong crashing of the ocean to finish. It's hard to describe.....

You walk off the 18th green and have that feeling in the pit of your stomach that you just dont want it to end. So - you walk around to the pro shop - have a bit of a spending spree  ;D....mingle in the car park as you just dont want to leave !!! As I said - I found it such a moving experience I can only think of my visits to TOC as being on a similar plane.


+1
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tim Leahy

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2010, 01:36:33 PM »
So, who's in charge of setting up the next King's Putter at Cypress? ::)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2010, 05:33:31 PM »
Kevin,

As a former caddie myself, that story just makes me cringe in pain.  I personally cannot stand making a wrong decision with my golfer--it wrenches me emotionally.  But then to make tactical errors right after (slowfoot and not raking), I might as well have just stepped off into the Pacific.  Maybe that caddie just didn't care, but that is no way to represent your club or earn your tip.  Yeesh

Brett

I'm sure Mike saw the funny side of things and purposely raked the bunker  ;D

I cant recall the name of the caddie I had but he was brilliant. His reading of the greens was superb and was telling me to hit it to breaks and areas to which visually in my mind at least - weren't there.

I had issues with photobucket last night and couldn't download the pic. but to add another story of the day.

As we were walking off the 16th green to the 17th tee the group behind us teed of and a ball went left down into the rocky beach inlet just to the left of the 16th. Divine intervention insued and it took a "miracle" bounce up out of the chasm and onto the left of the green.

I tell you that place has religious undertones.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 04:44:39 PM »
Kevin,

As a former caddie myself, that story just makes me cringe in pain.  I personally cannot stand making a wrong decision with my golfer--it wrenches me emotionally.  But then to make tactical errors right after (slowfoot and not raking), I might as well have just stepped off into the Pacific.  Maybe that caddie just didn't care, but that is no way to represent your club or earn your tip.  Yeesh

I had an irritating experience with my caddy too, but my fault for being a hack!

This was my first time on the course and the wind was blowing hard straight in off the ocean.  My most prevalent shape with the driver is a bit of a fade.  On the 16th tee the caddy hands me the driver and, although I didn't notice, took off around the inlet toward the green.  I hit two fairly solid drivers but neither carried the drink.  I look around to ask for a four iron and another ball so i can lay up and at least finish the hole - and he's gone!

So I just stroll on around and calm down.

After we finish he switches my clubs back into my own bag - the caddies there like to switch into their single strap bags and lighten up too - and he loses my putter.

Other than those situations he was fine.   :(   But he was one hell of a green reader, gave me a read on #4 that I still don't believe but made from 20 feet, a rainbow!

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2010, 05:37:54 PM »
Bill

How did you go with the fade on 17 ?

Gareth Williams

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2010, 05:22:07 AM »
Words fail me.....breathtaking.

Thanks for sharing...and...one day...

Bill_McBride

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 04:26:31 PM »
Bill

How did you go with the fade on 17 ?

I have never played anywhere but way left on #17,. so it was almost down wind and worked out fine.

Mike Tanner

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2010, 11:06:59 AM »
Kevin,
I came back to the site this morning for a second look at your photos. Yep, the course still looks magnificent. Thanks for sharing your experience.

And you played Pasatiempo in the afternoon? Suh-weet.
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2010, 12:29:21 AM »
Here's the photo to prove the back bunkers are in play off the tee  :D

« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 07:28:49 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Michael Taylor

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2010, 02:09:49 AM »
Hmmm, not bad.  ;D What an amazing golf course.

Kevin, what was your favorite hole of each section of the course? Dunes, Forest, Ocean..

Pup

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Cypress Point)
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2010, 06:02:30 PM »
Michael

9th = dunes
4th = woodland
16th (of course) = ocean

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in California: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pebble Beach update)
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2010, 06:04:04 PM »
Pebble Beach (PB) is Monterey’s famed public access course and as it’s only a short distance from Cypress Point on 17-mile drive its hard not to draw comparisons. Whilst CP stirred my emotions like few others - PB did not. Maybe it’s a bit like comparing apples and oranges ? I don’t know - I just don’t get the “love affair” with PB as after all someone once told me: “looks aren’t everything”.

Numerous times I was asked throughout my trip whether I was seeing PB - and numerous times I said I was - but only to see if my initial thoughts on it some ten years ago were going to be altered. They weren’t.

I just don’t understand what all the adoration is for ? Yes – it has some great iconic visuals and the stretch of holes along its coastline are certainly “world famous”. But after say # 6 through # 10 and # 18 which in my mind are easily the best collection of holes on the property: particularly in light of the diverse array of shots one is asked to play - are the other holes really “that great” ? As I said recently on another thread I started: especially when it is considered by many including Golf Magazine as among the Ten best courses in the World ?

I certainly don’t think it deserves to belong in such exalted company particularly given the quality of modern courses having been built over the years: Sand Hills / Pacific Dunes to name but two and also those great courses outside the US that are IMO underappreciated eg: Royal Melbourne (Composite) and Royal Dornoch - most significantly.

Don’t get me wrong there is nothing outlandishly “bad” there – it’s just that the “highs” are certainly offset by some “lows” eg: 1 / 5 / 11 / 15 to name but a few.

Its extravagant price tag of US$500 to play it is unbelievable when considering others that I paid on my trip or have paid in my lifetime. Each is to their own as far as “value” goes but if one is asked to part with $220 to play Pacific Dunes v $500 to play Pebble Beach – I know which one I’d plum for.


Holes I noted:

6th = (P5: 500yds) is a hole whose topography change needs to be seen to be believed. After a pretty innocuous drive with the best option to drive as close as possible to the bunkers on the left the fairway then rises sharply and narrows significantly. The 2nd shot landing zone is blind with the lone tree in the distance on the walk giving an indication of where the green is situated. One has to be particularly conscious of a long narrowing fairway bunker left and the ever-present ocean right.

Walk down fairway:


Looking back:


Approach to the green:


7th = (P3: 106yds) is a fantastic little short hole on a promontory. The wind factor is the biggest element here - that and taking into account the distance control required on such a dramatic downhill drop-off hole.

Modern:


Historic: (located inside the clubhouse – not sure when ? Egan’s ?)


8th = (P4: 416 yds) is a blind drive with a rock marking the centre of the fairway. This hole is all about the 2nd shot with a sharp drop off over a cliff to a small target with the green set at a very oblique angle and well protected by bunkers.

This may be the best three hole stretch I’ve ever seen particularly when combining the setting with the variety in the design.

Approach:


Looking back:



9th = (P4: 462yds) whilst not as dramatic as its predecessor this hole has its strength in the angle of the shot into the green with a large bunker protecting the direct line to a small target.

Significant fairway cant:


Greensite:


10th = (P4: 430yds) the run of cliff top holes concludes with a somewhat similar length hole to # 9. This hole has a significant slope that one can take advantage off the tee by driving it close to the bunkers and kicking it down the hill. The green is set at the far corner of the property flanked by bunkers and Carmel beach.





17th = (P3: 208 yds) this hole has been lauded by some as one of the best long P3’s going around. I think it doesn’t deserve such praise. The green is way too narrow at its centre for such a long shot IMO. Surely the green could be extended to the bunkers and make the target much more accessible. I would gladly play: 16 RMW / 16 Cypress Point over it for starters. The drive is bland to say the least and for mine it’s more of a connector hole to get to the 18th tee.





18th = (P5: 543 yds) PB certainly finishes off in style with a long P5 that bends around the cove. The trees in the fairway and next to the green make for some interesting ever-present obstacles.





For mine PB, has some great “highs” but the juxtaposition of that is that is has some real “lows” as well most notably the first few holes where you could think you are anywhere but at the Monterey Peninsula.

That said – others may find the overall feeling of PB well outweighs the sum of the individual parts and that’s one’s prerogative. I said on another thread – if given a choice I would gladly plum for CP over it and I fail to understand how some think it deserves a spot among the Top half dozen in the USA let alone the Top Ten in the world !!

Case in point – in the recent GM World Top100 the following courses from the US were listed behind it:
- Merion (East)
- Sand Hills
- National Golf Links of America
- Pacific Dunes
- Fishers Island
If someone can tell me why PB is better than any of the above I would be keen to hear why ?

PB is a very good course – and it’s obviously iconic but does it belong among the “very best” ? Certainly I am one who thinks not.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 07:34:11 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Bob_Huntley

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Hey, California guys, this critic thinks he can come back here, what say you?  :D

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