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Bill_McBride

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2010, 07:02:28 PM »


Sean how many greens do you  count as falling towards the rear?


Tony

In one form or another

#s 1, 2, 3 (back third of green), 4, 6, 8 (back tier), 9 (in places), 10, 11 (in places), 12, 13, 16 (in places), 17 (in front). 

I suspected some of those hollows were there before golf was involved.

Ciao

The only American course I can think of with anywhere near that many front to back sloping greens is the Coore & Crenshaw Cliffside course at Barton Creek in Austin, TX (# 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, and 16).  Nine greens falling away, all just naturally draped over the existing slopes.   I truly love to play that course.

The overwhelming bias by the general golfing public (and BC resort guests) toward the two sculpted Fazio courses on the same property is evidence that the general public doesn't really get it.   ;)

Huntercombe was the first course we played pre-Buda last fall.  It certainly held its own with the courses that followed:  Rye, Littlestone, Sandwich and Deal.    Quel voyage!   ;D

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2010, 07:08:41 PM »
Tony - At least one of the large "hollows" is said to have been created by the Luftwaffe!

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2010, 01:50:20 AM »
Tony - At least one of the large "hollows" is said to have been created by the Luftwaffe!




Mike anything is possible ( I heard the same 'story' at Biarritz) but any airforce dropping bombs inthe middle of nowhere deserves to lose!
Let's make GCA grate again!

Scott Warren

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2010, 10:56:26 AM »
Perfect timing for the thread, John: Giles Payne is being kind enough to kick my arse for a second time this Friday, this time around his home course.

The appetite has been whetted!

Mark Pearce

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2010, 11:10:27 AM »
Scott,

My money's on you, this time.

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2010, 01:35:21 PM »
Perfect timing for the thread, John: Giles Payne is being kind enough to kick my arse for a second time this Friday, this time around his home course.

The appetite has been whetted!

Scott, I don't remember seeing Giles' name on the 2010 Buda list.   As another recipient of a Payne-ful thrashing, I was rather hoping for a rematch.

Sean_A

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2010, 01:45:47 PM »
Perfect timing for the thread, John: Giles Payne is being kind enough to kick my arse for a second time this Friday, this time around his home course.

The appetite has been whetted!

Scott, I don't remember seeing Giles' name on the 2010 Buda list.   As another recipient of a Payne-ful thrashing, I was rather hoping for a rematch.

Speaking of omissions at Buda, I haven't heard hide nor hair of Rihc and his mate, Ian.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Giles Payne

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2010, 11:31:18 AM »
I hope to play BUDA 2010 but I am not sure how my finances will be - Bill, I would welcome the chance for a rematch. Scott - I am looking forward to our rematch, although I have only played once since October so anything could happen.

To all the occasional visitors to Huntercombe, the course plays firm and fast in the summer and there is even talk of giving the greens even less water in the summer in an attempt to further encourage the fine leaf grasses - the front to back greens are going to become even more fun.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2010, 04:37:13 PM »
I hope to play BUDA 2010 but I am not sure how my finances will be - Bill, I would welcome the chance for a rematch. Scott - I am looking forward to our rematch, although I have only played once since October so anything could happen.

To all the occasional visitors to Huntercombe, the course plays firm and fast in the summer and there is even talk of giving the greens even less water in the summer in an attempt to further encourage the fine leaf grasses - the front to back greens are going to become even more fun.

Giles, the good news for you is no air fare!  ;D

Scott Warren

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2010, 03:17:56 PM »
Scott,

My money's on you, this time.

Mark

You were half right.

Morning: G-Pain 2&1
Afternoon: Moi 5&4

So he leads 2-1 after three matches.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2010, 03:28:03 PM »
Scott, how was the course today?  I assume it was firm and fast after a few days of dry weather.  Hell, even Denham was running well on Monday.  I expect a full report!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark Pearce

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2010, 03:37:46 PM »
John,

Nowhere in the UK would have been firm and fast today.  Not after the last three months.  It takes more than a dry week (particularly when it's cold to give F&F conditions.


In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2010, 04:28:41 PM »
It was somewhat F&F for the first 12-13 holes due to a heavy frost overnight leaving the ground frozen!

Quite dry - I only got one mudball all day - but still far from firm once the ground thawed.

The course was just something else.

The greens are sensational, the grass bunkers are ingenious, plenty of centreline hazards... I loved it. Wide fairways, but hell once you strayed from them, and scacely a flat lie. I noticed early on, even if it was only 5-10cm difference, almost every lie/stance had some awkwardness to it.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2010, 05:11:17 PM »
It was somewhat F&F for the first 12-13 holes due to a heavy frost overnight leaving the ground frozen!

Quite dry - I only got one mudball all day - but still far from firm once the ground thawed.

The course was just something else.

The greens are sensational, the grass bunkers are ingenious, plenty of centreline hazards... I loved it. Wide fairways, but hell once you strayed from them, and scacely a flat lie. I noticed early on, even if it was only 5-10cm difference, almost every lie/stance had some awkwardness to it.

Don't you think Huntercombe is sort of a textbook for what the best of the early golf courses would have been?   

I really enjoyed playing there when we got to England last September.  Those greens are awesome.  I was short left of #8 after a poor drive and hooked FW, and the pitch and run into and up the slope to that tiny back tier made it worth missing the green!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2010, 05:50:02 PM »
It was somewhat F&F for the first 12-13 holes due to a heavy frost overnight leaving the ground frozen!

Quite dry - I only got one mudball all day - but still far from firm once the ground thawed.

The course was just something else.

The greens are sensational, the grass bunkers are ingenious, plenty of centreline hazards... I loved it. Wide fairways, but hell once you strayed from them, and scacely a flat lie. I noticed early on, even if it was only 5-10cm difference, almost every lie/stance had some awkwardness to it.

Scott

So, the question stands, is Huntercombe 1st tier?  My impression is many folks love the place but hestitate to place it with the big guns.  If this is your feeling, can you pin point why?

BTW  I played Little Aston today and it was running superbly.  I have no idea how they dried the course out so quickly.  Additionally, they just finished a serious green pluging job yesterday, but the greens were running very well.  I was most impressed!


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2010, 02:20:15 AM »
So, the question stands, is Huntercombe 1st tier?  My impression is many folks love the place but hestitate to place it with the big guns.  If this is your feeling, can you pin point why?

I was thinking about that on the train back to London, having read your thread again a few days ago.

I guess everyone has their own definition of what "top tier" is. I can see why John felt it might even be better than Swinley. I'm not sure yet if I agree, but I can see why some people would think that, but also can see why others might overlook it.

I'm inclined to agree with you that it is. But I am a sucker for centreline hazards...

Sean_A

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2010, 04:55:06 AM »
So, the question stands, is Huntercombe 1st tier?  My impression is many folks love the place but hestitate to place it with the big guns.  If this is your feeling, can you pin point why?

I was thinking about that on the train back to London, having read your thread again a few days ago.

I guess everyone has their own definition of what "top tier" is. I can see why John felt it might even be better than Swinley. I'm not sure yet if I agree, but I can see why some people would think that, but also can see why others might overlook it.

I'm inclined to agree with you that it is. But I am a sucker for centreline hazards...

Scott

I can't decide if Huntercombe is top tier or not, but I certainly think it should be thrown in the mix.  The course is far better than generally given credit for and imo is a no-brainer top 100 GB&I.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2010, 05:11:10 AM »
I agree it should be a no brainer for Top 100. Looking at the various sources:

Golf Week overlooked it for GB&I Top 50 classic
top100golfcourses.co.uk has it listed only as a Gem (ie. not in the top 152 IN ENGLAND!!!)
Golf Wold UK has never had it in a Top 100 list since beginning in 1982.

Which is all complete lunacy.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 05:43:35 AM by Scott Warren »

Scott Warren

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Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2010, 03:18:32 PM »
Having thought about it all a bit more at work and on the way home, I disagree that Huntercombe is "top tier in England", but that's no slight on it.

My barometer in England (indeed, in the world) is Royal St George's. Is Huntercombe as good as George's? No. Is it in the same league? No. Is it still a brilliant golf course. Absolutely.

Having abandoned sequential ratings because they are generally quite perplexing (see above for an example), I'm embracing the whole Rihcelin Scale line of thinking and am trying to think of my own way of classing what is better than what, but on the second tier of my still-being-formed scale I have the likes of Deal, Swinley, Woking, Rye etc and Huntercombe, IMO, sits comfortably in that company.

Some things that are crystalising the more I think about it:

The 1st is a great way to start, albeit with a green that must be hell if you hit the first swing of the day onto the wrong side of the hog's back in summer. Easy bogey! But with the trees behind the green cleared, I think it would leap forward in quality even more. That flag fluttering away in front of miles of clear air would be wonderful.

The 2nd through 4th holes introduce the variety of greens you will encounter really well: a steadyish slope (2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 18) ; a jumble of angles, slopes and ridges that can confound you from 10ft away (1, 3, 7); and finally two very flat tiers separated by a decent slope (4, 8, 16, 17). I guess the other class is bowls (13, 15).

The centreline hazards are what make several holes, IMO, and I for the life of me can't work out why modern architects won't embrace them. They were the standout feature of Huntercombe, just as they were at Woking.

The grass bunkers are awesome, and must be such a low-cost hazard when compared to sand bunkers and the work involved in maintaining them. It also seemed the hazards could be deper with grass lining them than if they were sand, for instance the fairway hazard on #16 that is a good 10ft deep 200-odd yards out from the green. I have always admired the grass bunkers at Colt courses, but thinking last night how Colt remodelled some Park courses in his early days (Wimbledon, Sunningdale... others?), I wonder if perhaps he got some of his inspiration from the man whose work he was changing?

The severity of the man-made humps at #7 made the hole, IMO. I wonder if more modern architects abandoned any pretence of their mounds trying to look natural they might be able to finish with something as eye-catchingly abstract and dramatic. I recall reading how haphazardly the shapers at The Castle Course moved dirt to form "dunes" and it looks to me from those pics that a similar degree of success was had. Pretty savvy of Park, too, to source the fill he needed to build his greens by digging out his hazards, and would ensure a uniformity of the native soil type across the greensite as well, I guess.

The tongue that sticks out of the slope in the 8th green is brilliant. I had a 30ft putt from centre right at the bottom of the slope to centre left at the bottom and there was no way to get it within 8ft due to that tongue, and after a few minutes of trying different putts, Giles and I found the way to get closest was to accept your fate at the start and deliberately hit your first putt low - abandoning any chance of making it. I love that.

Put me in the category of loving #17. Yes, there is no ground route to access the green, but that green is brilliant, with the fronting bunkers forcing the strategy to change depending how far back the pin is. To me the brillaince of the hole is the combination of the zany green and the humble length, with the step in the green making you ensure if you're not on the correct tier you're at least putting straight up or down the slope.

There are a few holes that have less interest than they could, but none I would call "poor".

Above all, Huntercombe was perhaps the most subtle golf course I have played, despite having many dramatic elements. The uniformity in colour between the fairways and most of the "hazard" areas made you concentrate 100%, as there was no "street map of bunkers" (was it Sean who coined that? I like it.) to give an obvious guide as to what is where.

The greens take some learning, for sure. I shot 88 in the morning and 75 in the afternoon despite hitting only two more GIR in the afternoon. Even removing the four extra shots for two drives OOB in the morning (which is down to me, not the course), that is a nine-shot swing for only two extra GIR. The first go around you've got about as much chance with those greens as you do with a Greek physics textbook.

I'd love to head back in summer and see it playing F&F. Any architect building a course on average to poor land should as an Act of Parliament have to play Huntercombe and New Zealand beforehand.

Thanks Giles for having me and not taking the score to 3-and-0 in the afternoon!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2010, 05:32:06 PM »
This is the putt I referred to from the 8th (pic left massive because compressing it would probably ruin the visibility of the contour). That tongue is just amazing. Makes the putt 1000% more perplexing, and forces you to abandon any hope of making it to lag it close-ish.

While that step in the green is clearly a pretty dramatic feature, the subtlety of the tongue makes the hole, for me.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2010, 06:03:01 PM »
Scott,

If you liked the grass bunkers at Huntercombe you should try to get to Berkhampsted before you go home.  If you and Giles do Huntercombe in the summer I'd love to join you.  Huntercombe, F&F on a warm, breezy summers day is a real joy.

On your scale, where else joins RSG in the first tier?

In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2010, 10:03:38 PM »
Scott,

Are there any other course in England that work their way into the top tier with Sandwich?  Or does Sandwich stand alone at the top for you?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2010, 01:07:58 AM »
Having thought about it all a bit more at work and on the way home, I disagree that Huntercombe is "top tier in England", but that's no slight on it.

My barometer in England (indeed, in the world) is Royal St George's. Is Huntercombe as good as George's? No. Is it in the same league? No. Is it still a brilliant golf course. Absolutely.

Having abandoned sequential ratings because they are generally quite perplexing (see above for an example), I'm embracing the whole Rihcelin Scale line of thinking and am trying to think of my own way of classing what is better than what, but on the second tier of my still-being-formed scale I have the likes of Deal, Swinley, Woking, Rye etc and Huntercombe, IMO, sits comfortably in that company.

Some things that are crystalising the more I think about it:

The 1st is a great way to start, albeit with a green that must be hell if you hit the first swing of the day onto the wrong side of the hog's back in summer. Easy bogey! But with the trees behind the green cleared, I think it would leap forward in quality even more. That flag fluttering away in front of miles of clear air would be wonderful.

The 2nd through 4th holes introduce the variety of greens you will encounter really well: a steadyish slope (2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 18) ; a jumble of angles, slopes and ridges that can confound you from 10ft away (1, 3, 7); and finally two very flat tiers separated by a decent slope (4, 8, 16, 17). I guess the other class is bowls (13, 15).

The centreline hazards are what make several holes, IMO, and I for the life of me can't work out why modern architects won't embrace them. They were the standout feature of Huntercombe, just as they were at Woking.

The grass bunkers are awesome, and must be such a low-cost hazard when compared to sand bunkers and the work involved in maintaining them. It also seemed the hazards could be deper with grass lining them than if they were sand, for instance the fairway hazard on #16 that is a good 10ft deep 200-odd yards out from the green. I have always admired the grass bunkers at Colt courses, but thinking last night how Colt remodelled some Park courses in his early days (Wimbledon, Sunningdale... others?), I wonder if perhaps he got some of his inspiration from the man whose work he was changing?

The severity of the man-made humps at #7 made the hole, IMO. I wonder if more modern architects abandoned any pretence of their mounds trying to look natural they might be able to finish with something as eye-catchingly abstract and dramatic. I recall reading how haphazardly the shapers at The Castle Course moved dirt to form "dunes" and it looks to me from those pics that a similar degree of success was had. Pretty savvy of Park, too, to source the fill he needed to build his greens by digging out his hazards, and would ensure a uniformity of the native soil type across the greensite as well, I guess.

The tongue that sticks out of the slope in the 8th green is brilliant. I had a 30ft putt from centre right at the bottom of the slope to centre left at the bottom and there was no way to get it within 8ft due to that tongue, and after a few minutes of trying different putts, Giles and I found the way to get closest was to accept your fate at the start and deliberately hit your first putt low - abandoning any chance of making it. I love that.

Put me in the category of loving #17. Yes, there is no ground route to access the green, but that green is brilliant, with the fronting bunkers forcing the strategy to change depending how far back the pin is. To me the brillaince of the hole is the combination of the zany green and the humble length, with the step in the green making you ensure if you're not on the correct tier you're at least putting straight up or down the slope.

There are a few holes that have less interest than they could, but none I would call "poor".

Above all, Huntercombe was perhaps the most subtle golf course I have played, despite having many dramatic elements. The uniformity in colour between the fairways and most of the "hazard" areas made you concentrate 100%, as there was no "street map of bunkers" (was it Sean who coined that? I like it.) to give an obvious guide as to what is where.

The greens take some learning, for sure. I shot 88 in the morning and 75 in the afternoon despite hitting only two more GIR in the afternoon. Even removing the four extra shots for two drives OOB in the morning (which is down to me, not the course), that is a nine-shot swing for only two extra GIR. The first go around you've got about as much chance with those greens as you do with a Greek physics textbook.

I'd love to head back in summer and see it playing F&F. Any architect building a course on average to poor land should as an Act of Parliament have to play Huntercombe and New Zealand beforehand.

Thanks Giles for having me and not taking the score to 3-and-0 in the afternoon!

Scott

When I asked the question is Huntercombe a top tier course I was thinking of the Rihcelin Guida of 1* (I have seen probably less than 40) and for me that is rather like the Doak Scale in that it is a reflection of how much I would recommend folks seeing a course.  Huntercombe falls somewhere between 1* (worth an overnight detour) and a Recommendation to see first if in the area without a game.  I just can't decide so in the time honoured Doak tradition, if you aren't sure then mark down rather than up.  Its a tough course to give a 1* to because I think a lot of folks would walk away thinking Huntercombe ain't all that.  BUT, in terms of my personal favourites Huntercombe is well up there.     

BTW a 3* (which I have never seen) is don't miss for any reason.  A 2* is plan a trip around this course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Huntercombe--Some Thoughts
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2010, 02:07:21 AM »
On your scale, where else joins RSG in the first tier?



That I have played: TOC for sure, and I'm still wrestling with a couple of others (North Berwick, Walton Heath (Old))

Scott,

Are there any other course in England that work their way into the top tier with Sandwich?  Or does Sandwich stand alone at the top for you?

I haven't played most of the big hitters yet.

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