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Patrick_Mucci

Fairway bunker depth
« on: March 30, 2002, 06:28:29 PM »
Assuming a fairway bunker/s is/are 250 yards from the back tee, on a relatively flat, straight hole with no water or out of bounds, what would the ideal depth of the bunker be for holes measuring 350, 400 and 450 yards to green sizes that are in  proportion to the length of the hole ?

What depth would you make the bunkers on these holes ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike O'Neill

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2002, 06:55:05 PM »
Patrick,

I have never heard that there is a rule of thumb. I think it depends on things such as how much of a penalty do you want the bunker to level against the player and what kind of club do you want the player to hit from that spot. Do you want the player to be able to reach the green or to accept his/her medicine? I have built bunkers 200 yards out that were 6-7 foot deep and 6-7 inches deep. It all depends on the strategy of the given hole.

Some people believe that bunkers should have a sort of uniformity in depth across a golf course. Fairway bunkers should be a consistent depth of x number of inches and greenside bunkers a consistent depth of y number of inches. I don't have a big problem with that necessarily. But I prefer to let the specific shot dictate. The depths might vary considerably.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2002, 07:35:13 PM »
Patrick,
I think Mike's got the right idea. Personally, I'd like to see fairway bunkers in the fairway. There is usually so much high grass growing around the usual suspects that they should be called "rough bunkers".  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2002, 09:18:13 PM »
PM
Good Question. I think perhaps a legitimate governing factor should be the principle that a bunker should probably be a 1/2 shot penalty which makes the depth a straighforward question of gradation relative to the distance away from the hole.
I recall a recent shot a made with a four iron on an eighteenth hole from a bunker app 190 out. It was a four man best ball competiton. I didn't feel good about going for the center of the green or pin as there was trouble on the right I had to carry but I had a safe play to the left front of the green. My partners had a safe seven iron to the hole at a good angle and the other two had better shots then me. I was able to put my ball where i wanted  safely but still had a 70 foot two putt which it turned out I needed to execute to score the par we needed for the hole( and did). Point being a strategic recovery shot resulting in the desired outcome is darn fun and one I remember as opposed to being in jail and bip.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2002, 10:44:46 PM »
This is as much a snappy sound bite for shapers as an oft followed rule of thumb, but I think that about one foot deep per iron of recovery is about right, in many cases.  That is, if a nine iron is left, it could be nine feet deep, or if a 2 iron is left, it could be two feet deep.  The relative depth makes each shot just "iffy" eough clearing the lip to install the half stroke penalty, and/or inspire fear.

Obviously, there is a bit of wiggle room in this ROT, as all players hit their irons different distances.

Other ROT's - the outside should be deeper than the inside (thank you D. Ross), par 5 holes can be deeper, given the extra stroke to get to the green, the bunker should fit the topography, and some consideration should be given to both the difficulty of the tee shot and the resulting approach.  

There is nothing wrong with a bunker being shallower than the "formula", especially if the green is more severe, or the fairway narrower.  Also nothing wrong with a deep fairway bunker on a long hole, providing there is wide enough fairway to miss, as a truly formidable fairway hazard on a longer hole.

Given the tendency of most golfers to want to hit a recovery shot, it is probably better to err on the conservative side on most holes.

Just my opinon, and I could be wrong! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2002, 09:27:10 AM »
Mike O'Neill,

Other than the extremes,
Doesn't bunker depth in relationship to the length of the shot
become the standard for "shot value" ?

Should there at least be a consistency, in terms of "shot value", allowing for exceptions, when designing and constructing fairway bunkers ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2002, 10:14:23 AM »
Thanks Jeff, and i agree with the general rule of thumb. I also feel the overall strategy of the hole and what shots are the bunker trying to influence the decision making on goes into this. I generally on a bunker at the 250 mark, unless the fairway has a clear playable rout, should not be as severe as the same bunker at 275. I want to 12 to 30 handicapper to have easily playable option and if the better player takes on the bunker with his driver he will find the 275 and fly the 250 anyway. so have the severe bunker there for him to address and let the 12 to 30 guy roll on with a bunker shot and not a 5 to 6 foot deep fairawy bunker he does not really know how to think his way though or play out of. This also helps pace of play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2002, 11:03:14 AM »
The Inverness Club, which will host the U.S. Senior Open this summer, is a good course to mention on this thread. After Arthur Hills' redesign a few years ago, the fairway bunkers ("rough bunkers") are very deep in most places. Furthermore, they seemed to slope away from the player, so that the ball rolled through the bunker right up under the lip.

At least 50% of the time, it was impossible to reach the green from a fairway bunker. I guess it puts a premium on driving accuracy, but it's not very fun. Are deep fairway bunkers any better than pitch-out rough, which I don't think GCA'ers generally like?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2002, 12:11:28 PM »
Shouldn't the depth of a fairway bunker reflect the risk/reward ratio? For example and at the extremes, maybe a large fairway bunker that parallels the fairway (not much risk - it's just there to penalize the off-line shot) shouldn't have the depth of a cross bunker (which must be carried for a good chance at par).  This idea would suggest that a bunker at the turn of a dogleg should be deeper and more penal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike O'Neill

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2002, 12:40:33 PM »
Patrick,

Can you go into your question about bunker depth and shot value a little more? I am not sure exactly what you mean by "standard". I've started typing an answer to your question a couple of times and stopped. Which means I am not sure I follow the question. Can you flesh that one out a little more?

As for consistency  in shot value in bunker construction, I don't know if you mean consistency from one fairway to the next, from one bunker to the next or even from one course to the next. I think the designer ought to decide the depth of the bunker based on the strategy of the hole. Something tells me I am not exactly answering your second question either. Maybe you had better help me there to.

Or, what if I said that each bunker shot will have it's own shot value independent of any other bunker shot, except maybe for the consistency of the sand itself?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2002, 12:43:56 PM »
In my mind, a bunker should be whatever depth that makes it look best and fit most naturally into its surrounding.

Thus, the "shot value" would be influenced by the depth of the bunker, rather than the other way around.   In other words, as much as possible, the architect shouldn't impose pre-conceived values onto the land, but rather should let the land do the talking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike O'Neill

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2002, 12:53:58 PM »
Jeremy,

Even in that scenario, the designer still gets to decide if two feet deep is better than one foot deep etc. And that one foot can make a lot of difference. I don't want to speak for Patrick, but for myself, I think that is where shot value is affected.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael_Burrows

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2002, 01:18:43 PM »
It is up to the architect to decide how deep as for shot value how can the shot value be consistent ? would the course not get boring after awhile.

A bunker is a hazard right ?
So why should a golfer who lands in a bunker on a par five with 200 plus yards to the green be allowed to play a five wood out over the edge and thus have a shot at eagle. What is the point of even having fairway bunkers where a golfer is not punished for hitting into them. If the bunker is not going to test the player's ability to hit good shots then I think the shot value out of fairway bunkers  is poor.

a little quote for everyone to think about.

" I suggest that the construction of bunkers on various courses should have a individuality entirely of their own which arouses the love or hatred of intelligent golfers."
                                              -Charles Blair Macdonald

    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2002, 02:03:07 PM »
Mike,

Yes, you're quite right.  The architect obviously has the final say (well, in an ideal world anyway, but that's for another topic... :)) and is the one who decides how deep a bunker will be.

But certainly what is interesting is the reason why a particular bunker is 2 feet deep or 4 feet or whatever.

I'm saying the architect should build a bunker that is X feet deep because that depth is what looks best and is most natural.  I think the architect should generally avoid basing his decision on values such as "I want this bunker to be X feet deep because I want to punish the low handicapper by half a shot when they go for it in two".  When doing so it always seems to me that you end up with golf courses that look "manufactured" with "pre-fabricated, engineered strategy".

(Of course, strategy and shot value should be in the back of the architect's mind, but only as a supporting "tie-breaking" type of role)

I just think that there are far too many variables in strategy and shot value for anyone to be able to predict and calculate it to such a degree, and be able to claim that a bunker that is three feet deep offers better shot value than one that is two feet deep or four feet deep.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael_Burrows

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2002, 02:21:18 PM »
So then how do you decide what type of bunker looks most natural. Do you blend it into a hillside? Do you place one down in a valley in front a green.

When I consider the use of bunkers, I have three basic questions to answer: What purpose do I want the bunker to serve? What type of bunker is needed? What will be the best Strategic position?                                                         - Pete Dye

 I guess Pete Dye is Wrong?????  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2002, 02:30:18 PM »
Jeremy,

It shouldn't surprise you that I totally disagree.

It goes back to the form versus substance issue.

It goes back to a critical factor in golf that many tend to diminish in favor of the look, playability.

If the fairway bunker, at 250 yds, on a 450 yard hole is six to eight feet deep, one would have little success in advancing the ball an appreciable distance to the green.  There would be no risk/reward connected with the extrication of the ball.  But, the same bunker configuration on a 350 yard hole would offer a reasonable in not difficult challenge, a clear element of risk reward.

I feel, how the hole plays is more important than how the hole looks.

Mike O'Neil,

What I was trying to convey was that the distance remaining to the green should influence the internal configuration of the bunker.   That fairway bunker shots of 200, 150, and 100 yards should have increasing impediments to the flight of the ball.

As I cited above, a fairway bunker six to eight feet deep, at 200 yards, would be extreme, and would limit the options to the golfer, whereas the same bunker at 100 yards would allow for advancement of the ball to the green.  

The first example is void of risk/reward or shot value,
the second has both.

And, throughout the golf course, with a few exceptions, shouldn't there be the same relationship with bunkers, their depth and the distance to the green, that usually exists relative to the size of the green and the length of the hole ?

I hope this clarifies the issue, if not, let me know and I'll try again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2002, 03:02:39 PM »
There is no ideal depth. Assuming that bunkers are designed to dictate play/options as opposed to simply penalizing an errant shot, the look is very important. Be it intimidating or inviting or naturlistic or harmless or invisible or misdirectional or whatever, the look has an effect on dictating play and ultimately on what the golfer decides.

If any golfer should be given consideration it is the plus man or woman, but on the other hand some of the most exhilirating shots in golf are relatively easy shots over gnarly bunkers. I would say variety and unpredicatability of depth is preferred to a formula because it leads to indecision, additional thought and in the long run more interesting golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2002, 03:31:35 PM »
Patrick,

No, it doesn't surprise me at all that you disagree with me.  I don't think we've ever agreed on anything, but heck, that's just the way it goes I guess...

Anyway, I believe that the way a course looks is as important as the way it plays.

Essentially,  I don't think an architect can affirm that the strategy and shot value of a hole will necessarily be better if a bunker is "X" feet deep rather than "Y" feet deep.  As an example, for a hypothetical hole, for the low handicapper the risk-reward balance would be perfect if the bunker was four feet deep,  for the mid -handicappers if it was three feet deep, and for the high-handicapper if it was two feet deep.

So what do you do?  

Since I can't predict what the shot value will be for any given golfer, for any given day and for any given match situation will be, I'm just going to make the bunker look good, whether that's at a depth of two feet, three feet, or four feet, or whatever else.

All other things being equal from a strategic point of view, I will place a bunker (or any other feature) where it looks most natural.  And, all other things being equal from an aesthetic point of view, I will place a bunker where it is most strategic.  I will also add a bunker in an aesthetically pleasing place even though it has no strategic purpose whatsoever.  But I won't add a bunker in a strategic location if it's going to look like shit (pardon my french).

I've never yet seen a hole where one couldn't design aesthetically pleasing strategy.  Aesthetics and strategy are not mutually exclusive.  But I've seen plenty of holes ruined because one tried to impose a certain strategy where it didn't fit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2002, 04:04:44 PM »
Jeremy,

Your reasoning is flawed because you're putting golfers of different levels in the same bunker, and that doesn't happen regularly in reality.  The high handicaper is rarely in the same fairway bunker as the scratch player, and.... the scratch player is rarely in the same fairway bunker with the high handicaper.

The shot value, risk/reward will be determined solely by the bunker depth as it relates to the length of the shot.  How can you possibly refute that ?

P.S.  If we all agreed on everything there would be no need for this site.  Look at it on the positive side.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2002, 04:36:13 PM »
Patrick

I think Jeremy is most right on this issues, i.e. no formulaic approach is best.  One of the things (surely not the only thing???) that I agree with most of the people on this site is the value of variety in GCA.  I see no reason why this should not also apply to bunkering.

I disagree strongly with you on two points.  Firstly that players of different abilities will rarely be in the same bunkers--you ignore mishits, the fact that many "high" handicappers can hit the ball prodigious distances, and, most importantly WIND.  Secondly, in your risk/reward post you seem to assume that all fairway bunkers should allow for the possibility of reaching the green--in a word, NOT...imho of course....I know personally a lot of deepish fairway bunkers where taking the risk of trying to hit an 8-iron say 130 yards up the fairway into the wind is very much a risk/reward situation vs. splashing out sidieways.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2002, 06:40:55 PM »
Variety is the beauty of golf. I have a strong disdain for formulistic golf design. The more formulas, the more golf course all look alike and the closer we get to a playing field like a football field or a B-Ball court. I like long holes with forced caries in front of the greens and short holes with open approaches. I like long hard par 4's with lots of trouble and short ones that look like everyone should be able to make a birdie. I say build deep bunkers where they fit the land and shallow ones where they look right, regardless of what club a 2 or a 20 might hit out of it. How much did "shot values" factor into the great designs in the UK? Should the road hole have a mound behind the green because it's a long iron approach?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Cirba

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2002, 08:01:53 PM »
Patrick,

I don't understand your contention that differently talented players wouldn't end up in the same fairway bunker.

Even disregarding that many higher handicappers can hit the ball with considerable length, what about the fact that they are usually playing from different length tees?

Personally, I think focusing on depth along also neglects too other important areas...length of the bunker and internal contouring.  For instance, a 6 foot deep bunker may sound penal, but it truly isn't for the better player who finds himself in the middle of one that is 25 yards long with a flat, firm bottom.  The shot may be blind, but hardly daunting for the superior golfer.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

LeeH

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2002, 01:45:18 AM »
Interesting thread

although what I find most amusing is when I post questions like what rules of thumb exist for sizes of greens, or widths of fairways and the like I get roundly shuffled off stage like some kind of bumbling idiot trying to come up with rules for something which should be infinitely varying and natural and totally dependent on whats happening on the land. I'm really struggling to see the difference in thos kind of questions and this one, or maybe it's only certain people who are allowed to discuss "formulaic" ideas because they have some special knowledge and it's amusing to ponder these questions in a very art house fashion ?

no disrespect intended.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2002, 11:48:44 AM »
Rich Goodale, et. al.,

For the sake of the discussion, let's exempt penal design.

Everyone keeps saying they are against formulaic design.

Isn't that unrealistic ?  Isn't almost every green size designed in a direct relationship to the length of the incoming shot ?

Do you see the 8th green at Troon, accepting shots from 180 to 250 yards ?

Do you see the 12th green at ANGC accepting shots from 180 to 250 yards ?

It's got to do with "shot value"

There are certain design principles that are consistently adhered to, and one is that the size of a green is almost always in direct relationship to the length of the incoming shot.  Why is it so alien to anyone that the same relationship exists between the depth of fairway bunkers and the length of the shot to the green.

Why this rigid denial of basic common sense architecture ?

I think you're all kidding yourselves if you think there is no relationship to the depth of a fairway bunker and the remaining shot into the green.

And.... can you give me some examples in the U.S. of five non-penal golf courses where this principle is consistently ignored ?

Lee H,

People don't like to answer questions in many cases because it undermines their point of view.  Don't feel slighted, it's just a personality quirk of armchair architects.

Mike Cirba,

If I want to get into Micro-analysis with respect to the configuration of every possible lie in every bunker I could do that, but for purposes of discussion, the broader principles seemed more important.  Getting under the lip of any bunker, fairway or greenside is an element of rub the of the green that we all find difficult.  

But, there are general principles that do apply to many facets of golf course architecture.  Many, I suspect, including you, tend to categorize them as formulaic.  So here's my question to you.  Don't all the fairway bunkers at Applebrook look alike, formulaic in nature ?

Don Mahaffey,

Are you saying that there are no basic or general design principles in golf course architecture, and that good design is a result of a chaotic rather than a orderly process ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fairway bunker depth
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2002, 12:45:14 PM »
MIke,

You are so right about the size of bunkers versus depth.  A six foot deep pot bunker is a lot more intimidating than a large bunker of the same depth.  So, steepness should factor in as well.  

It's always possible for bad luck to cause your ball to be unplayable.  In my experience, you can't - even if you wanted to - eliminate every unadvanceable directly to the pin shot on a course, especially in bunkers!  But, it surpizes me how many golfers will go out during construction and say "What if I end up right under the lip?" wanting me to do something to eliminate the "unfair" situation.

Donald Ross said he contoured bunkers to make sure the ball rolled at least a little bit away from the lip.  On most courses today, the edges are flatter, because the cost of maintaing such steep sand is deemed prohibitive.

I know this group abhors "formulas" but without some consideration of the physics of the golf ball and its flight, it is very possible to design an unpopular course, because it is not playable. (don't ask me how I know this ;))

Generally, though, I agree with Pat.  Each bunker should be carefully considered so that it accomplishes as much as possible - looks good, provides framing and definition (yes!) and good strategic value.  It's hard to believe that a designer wouldn't approach the design of individual bunkers without at least some idea of what it's strategic value should be.  
As the old chinese proverb says, "If you don't know where you are going, you can board any train at the station"

Every so often, its nice to have a bunker that screams "stay out of me" because it is so deep (let's give 'em something to talk about) or is easy enough to recover from to really tempt someone into making the carry required.  I naturally have some ideas about where each type should be used.  But to make a choice continuously interesting, there must be a balance between risk (too tough and no one will take it) and reward (hazard to easy, no one won't take the risk). By and large, most fairway bunkers should be deep enough to install about a 50% chance of full recovery, and should allow at least some advance forward, unless you are really unlucky -see above.  

Of course, this is not a firm and fast rule, just a starting point. In fact, my only real firm and fast rule about bunkers is to never again build one that will get me accosted at the hockey game! ;)

Accomplishing this means varying the depth and, as you say, the steepness of the total slope on the line facing the green, in relationship to the longest reasonably anticipated club (for a 150 yard bunker recovery shot, some golfers may hit a nine iron, others a 7, still others a 5, presuming they DO get into the same bunker by virtue of using multiple tees).  

If we expect mostly 7 iron recovery shots, with a loft of about 40 degrees, I think the bunker slope is ideally just under 20% (each 1% is about 2 degrees).  Shorter holes should generally have steeper banks, and longer ones should not only be shallower, but have flatter slopes.  I think a two iron is about 23 degree loft, no? so it should have about 10 or 11% of upslope facing the green.

Conceptually,  I think you could have the same depth for all fairway bunkers, but less slope but the bunker would probably become far too large in most cases.

Before any one goes putting a slope measuring device on any of my bunkers, I will say that few probably fit this "formula", in part because I just made it up while I was typing!  Anyway, the job of a professional golf course architect is to think about things in terms like that.  Making a concept work is a matter of engineering it in. So, you and Patrick have given me something to think about.....

I do agree with Jeremy that there are usually lots of different things going on, and in the end the tendency is to make it fit the topo best.  There is lots of wiggle room, and no firm rules, but if we don't think of bunkers in terms of playability as Patrick Mucci suggests, we often find them the objects of critisism (sometimes not so) later.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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