[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

When I first read this thread, I was planning to reply that I agreed with your key Redan features, but I got distracted by my friend Jon's statement that Hackensack's Redan played downhill...

Here is what you wrote so well:
1. play slightly uphill
2. be essentially blind
3. have a green which humps in the middle and feeds down to a rear hole location on the side where the crux bunker is
4. be guarded by a seriously harsh bunker on the left crux of the green
5. the best miss is to the rear of the green thus rewarding bold play
6. have a landing short of the green which if can be used to access the flag on any part of the green.

Trust me, Hackensack's Redan is blind. The only piece of the green you can see is the back right, which is actually part of the kick mound and not pinnable. One of the cool things about the hole is that even if you have hit a great shot, you don't know how close it ended up until you are 25 yards from the green. My friend had a hole in one there last year (I called it after the first bounce...) and he walked up the 11th fairway to get a better look at the green...

Look at the picture again and tell me what part ofthe green the pin is on, front, middle or back.

Except for the fact that the "harsh" bunker has been softened, it nails every one of YOUR requirments. You can tell me you like North Berwick's better and I won't argue a bit. Just don't tell me it is not a Redan...

[JNC Lyon]

Sean,

You had better be careful.  The 12th is Mr. Brightly's favorite hole at Hackensack

Bill,

Correct if I am wrong, as I have only played Hackensack twice.  However, the 12th is a bit downhill, no?  The golfer certainly has the benefit of a down-slope short of the green to feed the ball onto the green.  Second, although the green surface is blind, it is not hidden in the way that North Berwick's 15th is hidden.  Additionally, missing long of the green at Hackensack is probably worse than missing in the bunker left or short right.  To me, Hackensack's 12th is a Redan, but it is very different from the original hole at North Berwick.

Again, feel free to correct on any and all points where I have made serious errors in fact or judgment

[Bill Brightly]

Jon,

I have no problem comparing our Redan to North Berwick's as I think all others fall short in some way. I just take exception with someone who has never seen the hole saying it is not a Redan, when it obviously is one.

The hole plays uphill from the tee, but it is downhill to the pin if you miss the green on the right. Almost no one saves par from there. The kick mound feeds everything hard left, and you also have to deal with the spine. Long middle over the back has a bunker, long right over the mound is dead and long left is a fairway height collection area, so I guess that is a decent place to miss. To be honest, the lack of a "harsh" front bunker makes that one of the better places to miss, so I'd have to take major points off for that.

[JNC Lyon]

Bill,

I agree that 12 at Hackensack is a Redan.  However, it is clearly not a note-for-note copy of the North Berwick hole. 

I am glad that many architects (specifically the MBR crew) have had a loose definition of the Redan.  For example, the Yeamans Hall hole plays downhill to a visible green (at least I think it plays downhill--is my memory really fading that fast at age 20?).  It lacks some of the elements of the original hole.  Yet Raynor clearly had the 15th at North Berwick and MacDonald's subsequent copies in mind when he built the hole.  However, I do not think it would have been good for Raynor to force an EXACT COPY of the Redan into the Yeamans Hall property.  A hole like the 15th at NB just does not fit into the land for the 6th at Yeamans.  Rather, Raynor provided his own interpretation of the Redan hole, just he did with the "Alps" Hole on the 5th at Yeamans.  If every MBR copy were required to fit the original mold of the Redan, how varied and diverse would the MBR Redan holes be as a set?

[Bill Brightly]

I am not a big fan of semantics...but North Berwick's Redan was not a Redan until someone gave it that nickname. And I am betting that it was the wooden bunker facing that prompted the name.

So maybe we must say that it is no longer a Redan, but simply redan-like since that the bunker now has a grass face

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It would seem reasonable to accept that the term "redan" connotes an elevated or slightly elevated, angled military position where troops, prone on the ground, aren't visible to those confronting them.

That it's the subtle "shoulder like" angled fronting perimeter of the green, that hides the green behind it that gives the green its classification as a redan.

That's my definition and I'm sticking to it.

[Sean_A]

Okay, since folks don't seem to think there is any substantial difference or we are talking about semantics, what do you all think of when you think of a Redan and how closely does it resemble the namesake?  My problem with Redan wannabees is the full idea of the Redan is lost and hence the use of the word gets watered down to mean what for many is simply an angled green sitting on a plateau.  It just doesn't cut the mustard and is a lazy way to describe something.  Is our time so valuable that if when we are describing something we can't strive to be accurate?

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

I think there are "true" redans and that there are hybrid, pseudo and faux redans.

I don't consider "drop shot" redans like Sleepy Hollow's or LACC North's to be true redans.

I do consider Piping Rock's and NGLA's to be true redans.

I don't consider The Creek's 8th hole to be a true redan as it's a reverse and "drop shot" pseudo/hybrid redan.

[Bill_McBride]

Sean,

I think there are "true" redans and that there are hybrid, pseudo and faux redans.

I don't consider "drop shot" redans like Sleepy Hollow's or LACC North's to be true redans.

I do consider Piping Rock's and NGLA's to be true redans.

I don't consider The Creek's 8th hole to be a true redan as it's a reverse and "drop shot" pseudo/hybrid redan.

Can we all agree there aren't more than a few "accurate" replications of the sacred "original" Redan at North Berwick?

Then it becomes very interesting and rewarding to see how golf architects have taken what is exciting and challenging about the original to create really good holes.   The concept of a hole where the dialed-in aerial attack is not the most productive way to play it is as good as golf gets to me.

The downside of this is a lot of holes that are named "Redan" that may have no resemblance whatsoever to the original.  A great example is the "Redan" at the Bandit in New Braunfels, TX.  I had a good chuckle with Wyatt Halliday when we played there last August -- there are absolutely NONE of Sean's list of characteristics..........no tilt, no angle, no deep threatening bunker......

[Ed Oden]

I don't know how accurate the elevation feature is on Google Earth, but it indicates the Yeamans #6 green is only a couple of feet below the level of the tee (by comparison, the elevation change at NGLA #4 looks to be about 10 feet).  So the hole is downhill only in the strictest sense of the word.  While I agree that the green is mostly visible from the tee, it is virtually impossible to tell exactly where a left side pin is located.

Sean, it seems to me what you are really doing is questioning CBM's definition of a redan.  If you do not agree with his take on the essential characteristics of a redan then I doubt you will consider any of the holes designed by CBM, Raynor, Banks or others worthy of the name.  But I think you would be hard pressed to deny that these holes meet CBM's definition, which I suspect is what the architects were attempting to achieve.

Ed

[Ed Oden]

Bill, I agree completely.  I've seen holes described as redans which don't seem to me to have any of the qualities of the original, much less the CBM template.

Ed

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, I agree completely.  I've seen holes described as redans which don't seem to me to have any of the qualities of the original, much less the CBM template.

Ed

Ed, even most of the CBM "Redans" don't meet the critical criteria!  And the "Edens" are worse!  I don't think I've ever been as disappointed by a golf hole as I was by the "Eden" #13 at NGLA.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Oden,

When a redan transitions from being slightly down hill, to where it becomes a "drop shot" hole, I think it loses its "true" identity.

I don't know what the differential in the putting surface, and remember, there's a huge difference in the elevations within the putting surface at # 4 at NGLA, and the tee are, but, from a playability perspective, they're slight (de minimus).

I believe "slight" elevation differentials where the green is below the tee are acceptable in terms of the hole retaining its "true" redan classification.
Anything where the green is elevated above the tee is preferable.

Once the hole takes on a "drop shot" approach, it loses its identity as a true redan.

That's my definintion and I'm sticking to it.

[Ed Oden]

Patrick, I tend to agree.  That being said, I don't think I have seen any drop shot holes being marketed as redans.  Are there any?

Ed

[Tom_Doak]

The Redan at Yale is a drop shot hole, and disappointing for that reason.

Can't wait to hear what y'all think of the Redan at Old Macdonald.  I suspect it will be the most controversial hole on the course, because it doesn't fit the checklist all that well.  I'll be glad to defend the thought behind it, but I'm not going to do it in advance.

[JC Jones]

Tom D,

What about the 4th at High Point, which is called "Redan"? 

Would you say it is more or less characteristic of a redan than #17 at Belvedere?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I think there are "true" redans and that there are hybrid, pseudo and faux redans.

I don't consider "drop shot" redans like Sleepy Hollow's or LACC North's to be true redans.

I do consider Piping Rock's and NGLA's to be true redans.

I don't consider The Creek's 8th hole to be a true redan as it's a reverse and "drop shot" pseudo/hybrid redan.

Can we all agree there aren't more than a few "accurate" replications of the sacred "original" Redan at North Berwick?

Then it becomes very interesting and rewarding to see how golf architects have taken what is exciting and challenging about the original to create really good holes.   The concept of a hole where the dialed-in aerial attack is not the most productive way to play it is as good as golf gets to me.

The downside of this is a lot of holes that are named "Redan" that may have no resemblance whatsoever to the original.  A great example is the "Redan" at the Bandit in New Braunfels, TX.  I had a good chuckle with Wyatt Halliday when we played there last August -- there are absolutely NONE of Sean's list of characteristics..........no tilt, no angle, no deep threatening bunker......

Bill

Yes, when I said "watered down" it was as a Redan concept.  That doesn't in the least mean there isn't an influence or that the hole can't be great regardless.  My beef is when someone says"Redan" I have an image of a certain hole so I expect the use of the word to fit that image.  Otherwise, the word needs to be qualified in some way.

Ed

Yes, i do disagree with CBM's simplified idea of a Redan for the reason outlined above.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, I tend to agree.  That being said, I don't think I have seen any drop shot holes being marketed as redans.  Are there any?

Yale, Sleepy Hollow, LACCN

[Bill Brightly]

I wish CBM were alive today and could respond to Sean's posts That would be a lively debate...

It seems clear to me that Macdonald most admired the redan-like features of the green complex, but felt no obligation to make it an uphill tee shot, i.e. the drop shot at Sleepy Hollow, not to mention the reverse redan green. CBM paid homage to the hole by usng certain features, not entrely copying it. Peraps this proves that CBM did NOT use templates, but rather, just features.

 I honestly feel this does more justice to the original rather than hundreds or thouands of pure copies. IMO, even a "bad redan" by Sean's standards is likely to be one of the best holes on that golf course, once again proving how good the hole at North Berwick's is.

[Steve Lapper]

Patrick, I tend to agree.  That being said, I don't think I have seen any drop shot holes being marketed as redans.  Are there any?

Yale, Sleepy Hollow, LACCN

Pat,

   Do you find QR #9 a redan? Just wondering? Spring time home and away this year!

[Sean_A]

It seems clear to me that Macdonald most admired the redan-like features of the green complex, but felt no obligation to make it an uphill tee shot, i.e. the drop shot at Sleepy Hollow, not to mention the reverse redan green. CBM paid homage to the hole by usng certain features, not entrely copying it. Peraps this proves that CBM did NOT use templates, but rather, just features.

 I honestly feel this does more justice to the original rather than hundreds or thouands of pure copies. IMO, even a "bad redan" by Sean's standards is likely to be one of the best holes on that golf course, once again proving how good the hole at North Berwick's is.

Bill

To be clear, I don't have any problem with any of the holes mentioned.  They are a testament to how good the generalized the redan concepts are. 

I fully understand CBM had no intention of copying en masse, he was transporting concepts to fit his purposes and with his own twist or lack thereof.  I also think, as you do, that we as golfers are far better off for all the takes on the Redan rather than having mere copies, but if it ain't  Redan why must we call it one?

Ciao

[Simon Holt]

Hi guys,

I have been waiting a while to jump in so be gentle with me!

I'm not sure how to bring up those great pictures of NBs Redan that were posted earlier but the first one is taken from the Ladies tee.  The cool thing about the Redan is that the angle from which the tee shot is played opens up so many pin positions on the green-not just the ability to 'sling-shot' in off the right hand shoulder.  The mens tee is further left more on the angle of the second photo, with the prefered line being a gentle draw going over the left hand bunker on the first banking. 

The few other Redans I have played just dont seem to get the angle of the green relative to the teeing ground as subtly taxing as the original.

Wind or no wind, a pin placed half way down the green on the right side is by far the toughest in my mind.  What most people forget is that the green actually breaks left to right after the big right to left slope on the front right portion of the green.  Any pin on back side of that is almost impossible. To get close you need to hit a high fade (RH) over the right edge of the big left side bunker to hold up against the slope and then gently release over the hump catching the correct side of the ridge to go onto the left to right....phew!!  More luck than skill as you can imagine.  From the ladies tee that pin is a no-no.

The older guys at the club are the coolest to watch play this hole.  They all aim right out of habbit and carry it just over the first bank, run through the dip and then release onto the green- 2 putts, job done!  Its why we all love the game right- which ever way works!  They also tee off at 8am, get round in 2h30 so they are dressed for the bar opening at 11am! Love it.

S

[JNC Lyon]

Simon,

Thanks for the insight on the original Redan.  Great first post, and I'm glad to see you on the site!

It is very interesting that the green on 15 breaks left to right.  I always assumed that Redan-style greens with left-to-right break were somehow lacking in Redan-ness, if you will.  However, it sounds like a back green portion with a left-to-right break might be an integral part of the Redan!

The 4th Hole at Swinley Forest has this type of feature.  It is uphill and partially blind from the tee.  The player can use the bank to the right of the green to feed the ball onto the green  Yet much of the green breaks left to right towards the bank.  Originally, I thought this disqualified the 4th from being a Redan.  Now, after your description of North Berwick's 15th hole, it sounds like Swinley's 4th might be a Redan after all.

Additionally, it sounds like Berwick's 15th is much of a ground game hole than an aerial game hole.  Conversely, many Redan copies favor the aerial game over the ground game.

[Simon Holt]

Simon,

Thanks for the insight on the original Redan.  Great first post, and I'm glad to see you on the site!

It is very interesting that the green on 15 breaks left to right.  I always assumed that Redan-style greens with left-to-right break were somehow lacking in Redan-ness, if you will.  However, it sounds like a back green portion with a left-to-right break might be an integral part of the Redan!

The 4th Hole at Swinley Forest has this type of feature.  It is uphill and partially blind from the tee.  The player can use the bank to the right of the green to feed the ball onto the green  Yet much of the green breaks left to right towards the bank.  Originally, I thought this disqualified the 4th from being a Redan.  Now, after your description of North Berwick's 15th hole, it sounds like Swinley's 4th might be a Redan after all.

Additionally, it sounds like Berwick's 15th is much of a ground game hole than an aerial game hole.  Conversely, many Redan copies favor the aerial game over the ground game.

Hmmm.  The ground game is the West Links all day long - bar the obvious exception of the 7th due to the burn.  With respect to Redan, once you carry the front ridge there is another 30 yards to the green.  The valley is shallower and banked on the RHS which is why traditionally the 'old skool' would always play out there.  Given more controlled, higher ball flight, that we now have you can fly it all the way and unless its blowing hard from the West you can get the ball to stop....not if the pin is at the front...just still on the green!

The left to right happens twice.  From the ridge formed by the prominent famous slope on the right that cuts diagonally from middle right towards the back left, and then very subtly (and more just off green if truth be told) from the ridge formed by the crux bunker and the 16th medal tee.

Having just got back from the pub the concensus is that we have 3 theories on the name Redan.  It 'definitely' comes from French fortifications that had triangular shaped wooden butresses protruding from the fortress walls, and was brought back to our shores as a word after the Crimean War.  The 3 theories on the name for our 15th are the double defended element given by the front bunkered ridge before the valley, the famous right to left slope on the green deflecting shots as it were, and finally the wooden rail ties that used to be in the crux bunker.  Take your pick. 

I would plum for the right to left shape of the front/right of the green.  I imagine this is what CBM et al were alluding to also.

[Anthony Gray]

  Is Pacific Dunes 17 a Redan?

  ARG

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