[Anthony Gray]

  The first par 3 at Chambers Bay looks like the stereotypical Redan to me.

  Anthony

[Mark Molyneux]

I always associated Alister Mackenzie with the redan because of his background in military camoflauge.

No association whatsoever as far as I know!  His first course (Alwoodley) opened in 1907, long after the first Redan, and I don't think he ever designed a Redan hole - except maybe at Augusta National.

Hi Bill and thanks for the clarification!

You chased me back to the Doctor's writings in Golf Architecture. I saw no specific reference to the redan design. I did note in his discussion of "ideal golf holes" that MacKenzie felt the surface of the green and the approach to it should be visible. Perhaps that contention made him averse to the redan. In my experience with Gary Player designs, the Black Knight seems to hold a similar philosophy. He seems convinced that playing down to greens (as opposed to uphill approaches) makes a golf hole "ideal". The golfer sees pretty much the whole challenge and it's up to him / her to take on the challenge that's been made obvious. Maybe we ought to christen those as representing the "transparent school of design"?

[Mac Plumart]

Anthony...can you post a picture of that hole on this thread?

[Ally Mcintosh]

From Robert Hunter 1926:

"Opinion is divided as to the others, but who disputes the claim made by the admirers of the Redan, namely, that it is the greatest single-shot hole in the realm of golf? If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then the Redan surely deserves its fame. It has been copied again and again, and many replicas, such as they are, have been built in this country. It is a one-shot hole, measuring about 200 yards. A huge bunker lies athwart the long narrow green which winds around to the left behind the hazard. Several bunkers lie in front of the tee and others lie at the right of the entrance to the green. With a mashie, one could on almost any day play this hole in a four, but he who strikes for its par must execute perfectly one of three difficult shots. With a stiff head wind one may play either a long carry with the slightest touch of slice over the left end of the big bunker guarding the green, or a dead-straight spoon shot directly over its centre. If the golfer doubts his ability to play either of these shots, he may try a low-flying ball to the right with a sharp pull, and run at the finish. No one of these shots is allowed much margin for error, and usually the slightest deviation in the line taken or in the action of the ball brings a severe penalty."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony Gray,

For some reason I've never been enthralled with downhill Redans.
I think they lose a vital element from the playability perspective.

LACC North's and Sleepy Hollow's are nice holes, but more "drop shot" type holes, as is the reverse at The Creek

Piping Rock's redan returns the concept of an assault on a battlement, it's one of my favorites.

TEPaul,

# 1 at The Creek is one of my favorite holes, unfortunately, it lacks the ability to add some length, which would make the green more relevant.  Approaching from 180 would alter the play of the hole dramatically, versus 100-120 wedge approaches.

It's one of the most unique par 4's around

Jim Sweeney,

While I've parred # 9 at CC Fairield every time, I've yet to hit the green.
That is a neat hole and one day I hope to be putting for a birdie.

[James Bennett]

I always associated Alister Mackenzie with the redan because of his background in military camoflauge.

No association whatsoever as far as I know!  His first course (Alwoodley) opened in 1907, long after the first Redan, and I don't think he ever designed a Redan hole - except maybe at Augusta National.

Mackenzie designed 'Gibralter' at Moortown.  A similar fortress hole but less severe and less rewarding of being long than the Redan.  Moortown's 17th (then 8th and now 10th).

Gibralter is that fortress/rocky outcrop on the deg of Spain, just across from Morocco.  You may have seen it in a James Bond film - no not the golf one (Goldfinger), the military exercise/shooting one (well, the intro was like that).

Mackenzie then amended his beloved Alwoodley #11 to mimic the Gibralter in the next suburb at Moortown.

James B

[Bill_McBride]

I always associated Alister Mackenzie with the redan because of his background in military camoflauge.

No association whatsoever as far as I know!  His first course (Alwoodley) opened in 1907, long after the first Redan, and I don't think he ever designed a Redan hole - except maybe at Augusta National.

Mackenzie designed 'Gibralter' at Moortown.  A similar fortress hole but less severe and less rewarding of being long than the Redan.  Moortown's 17th (then 8th and now 10th).

Gibralter is that fortress/rocky outcrop on the deg of Spain, just across from Morocco.  You may have seen it in a James Bond film - no not the golf one (Goldfinger), the military exercise/shooting one (well, the intro was like that).

Mackenzie then amended his beloved Alwoodley #11 to mimic the Gibralter in the next suburb at Moortown.

James B

James, when I played Alwoodley in 2005, I had played the Redan at North Berwick several times and have to tell you I could discern almost no similarity between the Redan and #11 at Alwoodley.

It's a terrific par 3, but it's a back to front sloper and there is no dealing with a front left bunker with pins cut behind the bunker.

[Gary Slatter]

I think a lot of shotmakers build a "redan" into their shot making process and then draw the ball to their target. 

IMHO I think I've often thought of greens on par fours and par fives as redan style (and my firends say "sure, whatever")

And Anthony, in all honesty, does the gas you use at work, or the glass you use after work, affect your scpelling the most

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jaeger,

    While we all enjoy your fondness for Quaker Ridge (where i grew up playing and caddying and still enjoy several times a year) , unfortunately it's a gross misrepresentation to believe that it has a real Redan hole. I believe you are referring to #9 (and if it's 10 or 13 that's even more absurd?). Both greens have significant areas that feed balls away from any semblance of a traditional high-right shoulder (and or small collection at front right). Tilly, and I believe Phil Young or Rick Wolff would both concur, ceased trying to template holes before finishing the likes of QR or WF.

   His example at #2 in Somerset Hills is by and far the strongest of Tilly's Redan constructs. There, like Shinny, Yale, Yeamans, or NGLA, the fortress-like qualities of a real redan are quite evident. It is simply far too great a stretch of the imagination to believe that QR has anything near these features on any green complex on the property!


S


PS.....If you still believe #9 is a Redan, then please explain to me how my 8 iron(with a little draw) stuck 12 feet to the right just pin high to a front left stick this past summer, or if you will, ask your 5X club champion (my long time friend and godfather to my oldest daughter) if he believes there is a Redan there.

Steve - Of course I am talking about #9. Here are my thoughts about why #9 is a redan hole:
1 - Look at the bunkering scheme. There is even the bunker all the way short right (as there is at Yale for example), although it really isnt in  play, as it is normally surrounded by rough.
2 - Triangular green. Although perhaps not a mandatory characteristic of the hole, many redans do have this.
3 - The overall slope of the green is front-to-back and right-to-left. Yes? However, because of where the the mound which will feed balls to the back left is located, on this version, yes it is possible not to get that roll out, or even if you are a really long player, back up a 9-iron, to the front right corner of the green. (Look at a picture of the hole at Yale and tell me that you cant do the same off the front right corner there, only they aren't sick enough to actually put a pin there!)
4 - What happens when you miss the green right? (in the bunker or worse in the rough)... good luck holding the green, because the smallest, and one of the most severe greens on the course, is sloped entirely away from you.
5 - (paraphrasing from 1 of the tillinghast books via the tilly association)The Redan Hole is also normally marked with a large daunting trap front left of the triangular shaped green grabbing short and straight balls which are not headed for the mound... sound familiar?


By the way - I would assume you are talking about our member with the initials of PZ? While on the 13th hole one day this summer I was trying to get him to talk about the Reef hole, but when he referred to it as a Birritz, I did just let it be!!

As far a tilly moving away from template holes at QR, I would completely disagree. I can argue #1, 5, 8, 9, 13, 14 and can even make a case for #15 with its counter part only about 130 yards away from it, across griffen ave. I would love to explain more on my thoughts about this, but for the sake of the thread, i wont here.

[Bill Brightly]

Hey Jon, just saw your post!

You only played Hackensack once, so I forgive you for forgetting that the green is not visible from the tee






It is true that National's plays downhill, but that green is not visible IMO. The only time I played it, I thought I hit a perfect shot short of the green that rolled on nicely, visions of birdie danced in my head, only to find when I got to the green that it BARELY made it on, and left myself a REALLY fast downhill putt. (Don't ask...)

[Sean_A]

This is the prototype of what I see passed off as a Redan all the time.  It may be a good hole design, but it ain't a Redan.


John, you said

"Sean,
By your definition, the 4th at National Golf Links of America is not a Redan.  From my understanding, 4 at NGLA is downhill and visible from the tee.  In fact, most MRB Redan holes would not qualify.  All three MRB I have played (Yeamans Hall, Fox Chapel, and Hackensack) have very visible greens.  The Redans at Yeamans and Hackensack are slightly downhill from the tee.  Do you agree that these holes are not Redans?
Additionally, from your definition, Reverse Redans are not Redans.  Do you concur?
A couple more Redan questions for everyone:
Must a Redan require a player to hit draw?  That is, are Redans only Redans for right-handers, and Reverse Redans only Redans for left-handers?
Is the 4th at Swinley Forest a Redan?  I tend think it is not a Redan, although a player can take use the land to the right of the green to feed the ball close to the hole in Redan fashion."

I don't know if NGLA's Redan is a Redan - never played it.

I don't believe Yeamans Redan is a Redan, but it is a bloody good hole.

I do believe a reverse Redan can be a Redan, but like I said, the ONLY real Redan I have ever played is at North Berwick.  Once you step on the tee you know immediately why it is different.  That said, it isn't necessarily a bad thing that the Redan hasn't been properly copied.  My only beef is when people believe they have created something better when what they mean is they created something which is much more often than not, more readily apparent as to the required shot.

Ciao

 

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin -

I would have to say:

Yale would be #1 for me... down hill, great landscape, large green, I thought it fit in very well as far as timing in the round

#2 would be Quaker... very different from yale. shorter, level ground, small green, deeper bunkers, aesthetically one of my favorites of all time, biggest penalty for missing the green (especially right)

#3 would actually be not from a top 100 list, Knoll West... the definition of fortress, good luck from  the bunkers surrounding this green, its almost like hitting out of the left greenside bunkers at yale (crazy deep!)

#4 would be shinny... i watched a practice round in the 2004 open there from the tee, maybe, maybe 1 in 40 players was able to keep a ball on that green

old mac doesn't get ranked, when i saw it, it was mostly dirt, so its not really to give a proper opinion

Jaeger

Thanks for that. I must admit I didn't recall #9 at Quaker Ridge jumping out at me as a Redan.

I will be interested to see what others think of Old Mac's version.

[Dave McCollum]

Carlyle—

Thanks for the shots of the real McCoy.  I played it twice on the same day with a strong tail wind.  What I remember the first time around, and only when I reached the green, is how steeply it is sloped from front to back.  No way to hold a down wind shot that lands on the green.  Second time around I hit it short right into the upslope in front, it trickled on nicely, and I got my par.  A very tricky little bugger, probably in all conditions, that requires precision or, in my case, foolish luck.

[JNC Lyon]

Bill,

Thanks for the refresher on Hackensack.  I assume that because the hole is downhill in my memory, it must also have a green that is visible from the tee.  I love the 12th at Hackensack.  I just hope you manage to remove the little Rees bunker in the near future.

Sean,

How do the playing characteristics of a hole like 12 at Hackensack or 6 at Yeamans Hall differ from those of 15 at North Berwick?  As Bill shows us above, the player still faces on obscured green and gets the impression that he is storming a fortress on 12 at Hackensack.  The player is still required to hit a solid draw to find the putting surface.  The player can still take advantage of the green contours to feed the ball left to the hole.  How does this hole play differently than NB 15?  How does 6 at Yeamans play differently?

I guess my bigger question is: how did you formulate your definition of a Redan?  I know MacDonald had his own definition of a Redan, and it was slightly different.  MacDonald, Raynor, and Banks did not invent the Redan, but they did popularize it.  I am going to rely on their definitions of a Redan.  Each of their "Redans" have certain shared characteristics, that, to me, make the holes Redans.  The angling of the green, the deep hazard short left (or right on a Reverse Redan), and, most importantly, the right to left slope of the green make the hole a Redan.

[Sean_A]

Bill,

Thanks for the refresher on Hackensack.  I assume that because the hole is downhill in my memory, it must also have a green that is visible from the tee.  I love the 12th at Hackensack.  I just hope you manage to remove the little Rees bunker in the near future.

Sean,

How do the playing characteristics of a hole like 12 at Hackensack or 6 at Yeamans Hall differ from those of 15 at North Berwick?  As Bill shows us above, the player still faces on obscured green and gets the impression that he is storming a fortress on 12 at Hackensack.  The player is still required to hit a solid draw to find the putting surface.  The player can still take advantage of the green contours to feed the ball left to the hole.  How does this hole play differently than NB 15?  How does 6 at Yeamans play differently?

I guess my bigger question is: how did you formulate your definition of a Redan?  I know MacDonald had his own definition of a Redan, and it was slightly different.  MacDonald, Raynor, and Banks did not invent the Redan, but they did popularize it.  I am going to rely on their definitions of a Redan.  Each of their "Redans" have certain shared characteristics, that, to me, make the holes Redans.  The angling of the green, the deep hazard short left (or right on a Reverse Redan), and, most importantly, the right to left slope of the green make the hole a Redan.

John

I got my ideas of a Redan from the Redan.  I know people poo poo some of the elements, but I think about half a dozen elements come together to make this a truly exceptional hole.  When CBM talks about turning a green on a plateau he has simplified the whole far too much. 

IMO, the main differences between Yeamans and NB are:

1. Yeamans is a full view hole. 

2.  NB's green will feed back left (if there is enough juice) from the front of the green.  Yeamans will not do this.  One has to hit the rear hump as the line, otherwise, the ball stays right and leaves what amounts to as an all-world 2 putt. 

3. If one hits the landing zone at the right height at NB, the ball will feed.  At Yeamans, there is almost a false front.  One has to carry the middle of the green then use the hump or take the chance of banging one along the ground and hope.  To me, there is one clear play at Yeamans assuming the course is firm  and that is to carry the green.

All this said, I believe Yeamans 6th to be a terrific hole, but more a take on a Redan rather than a Redan - which is fine and probably better than trying to re-create a Redan.

Ciao

[Steve Lapper]

Jaeger,

    While we all enjoy your fondness for Quaker Ridge (where i grew up playing and caddying and still enjoy several times a year) , unfortunately it's a gross misrepresentation to believe that it has a real Redan hole. I believe you are referring to #9 (and if it's 10 or 13 that's even more absurd?). Both greens have significant areas that feed balls away from any semblance of a traditional high-right shoulder (and or small collection at front right). Tilly, and I believe Phil Young or Rick Wolff would both concur, ceased trying to template holes before finishing the likes of QR or WF.

   His example at #2 in Somerset Hills is by and far the strongest of Tilly's Redan constructs. There, like Shinny, Yale, Yeamans, or NGLA, the fortress-like qualities of a real redan are quite evident. It is simply far too great a stretch of the imagination to believe that QR has anything near these features on any green complex on the property!


S


PS.....If you still believe #9 is a Redan, then please explain to me how my 8 iron(with a little draw) stuck 12 feet to the right just pin high to a front left stick this past summer, or if you will, ask your 5X club champion (my long time friend and godfather to my oldest daughter) if he believes there is a Redan there.

Steve - Of course I am talking about #9. Here are my thoughts about why #9 is a redan hole:
1 - Look at the bunkering scheme. There is even the bunker all the way short right (as there is at Yale for example), although it really isnt in  play, as it is normally surrounded by rough.
2 - Triangular green. Although perhaps not a mandatory characteristic of the hole, many redans do have this.
3 - The overall slope of the green is front-to-back and right-to-left. Yes? However, because of where the the mound which will feed balls to the back left is located, on this version, yes it is possible not to get that roll out, or even if you are a really long player, back up a 9-iron, to the front right corner of the green. (Look at a picture of the hole at Yale and tell me that you cant do the same off the front right corner there, only they aren't sick enough to actually put a pin there!)
4 - What happens when you miss the green right? (in the bunker or worse in the rough)... good luck holding the green, because the smallest, and one of the most severe greens on the course, is sloped entirely away from you.
5 - (paraphrasing from 1 of the tillinghast books via the tilly association)The Redan Hole is also normally marked with a large daunting trap front left of the triangular shaped green grabbing short and straight balls which are not headed for the mound... sound familiar?


By the way - I would assume you are talking about our member with the initials of PZ? While on the 13th hole one day this summer I was trying to get him to talk about the Reef hole, but when he referred to it as a Birritz, I did just let it be!!

As far a tilly moving away from template holes at QR, I would completely disagree. I can argue #1, 5, 8, 9, 13, 14 and can even make a case for #15 with its counter part only about 130 yards away from it, across griffen ave. I would love to explain more on my thoughts about this, but for the sake of the thread, i wont here.

Jaeger,

   Again, I laude your determination to elevate QR to mystical status, however, the perseverance you practice trying to ascribe classic template design to many of the holes is borderline absurd.

   While there is nay doubt that nearly all of the great Golden Age architects were influenced by the classic features of certain Scottish courses and certain features emerge from time-to-time on various designs, there is no way that many of the QR holes you cite follow any template formula or deliberate mimicry.

   The Ninth hole, you maintain, is a redan because of a short tight bunker, a triangular green and a front-to-back and right-to-left green slants, or because it shares SOME characteristics of the Yale "redan." Okay, even if those traits MIGHT be inferred, there is no kicker, no high-righ shoulder, no automatic feeder release from the tall right......all necessary ingredients to a real redan hole IMHO. Would a hole with a pot bunker just before it's front face be a road hole, would any dogleg around a body of water become a cape? It's simply too great a stretch to believe that a handful of minor features give validity to the definition, however if you want to believe it's a redan, then I've got a bridge or two for sale as well.

   QR is a marvelous parkland course that tests every facet of a player's game. The terrain, unlike it's close neighbor, lent itself to creative architecture and demanding lines. Tilly recognized that, but made no documentable effort to place template design upon that land. If you've ever played Somerset Hills, the stark contrast of deliberation about duplicating Scottish templates is glaringly evident. His redan on #2, as Mike Policano agrees, is a wonderfully pure example of Tilly's ability to replicate templates. It has a major kicker and repelling hill(features not evident on QR #9)He follows his Scottish brethren throughout that course and makes a plea with the club to keep those features stark by avoiding excess trees and plantings.

   Yes I am referring to PZ. While he is extrordinarily intelligent, and quite accomplished as a golfer (played for Harvard), he is equally distracted while playing. We've had multiple conversations about golf course architecture and design (we partnered for the Old Bridge (NLE) project. Many of these chats have taken place at QR. He knows his stuff. I know he'd agree that Tilly didn't think about replicating template design there.

    Anytime you want to continue this discussion, please feel free to PM me. That we both love QR (from very different perspectives) should make any debate interesting.

[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

The 12th at Hackensack is most definitely a Redan, and it is a superb one. It was built by Banks in the 1920's, his first ever solo effort.

The stupid little bunker short of the redan bunker was added in the 90's and it is my number one goal in life to have it removed...The main bunker needs to be deepened to its original depth. But the kick mound is excellent, and the green has a perfect right to left tilt. What the pictures do not show is a great spine running diagonally right to left down the center of the green. Hit the wrong side of this spine and you will be lucky to walk off with a par.

Bill

[Mike Policano]

The 12th at Hackensack is a very good redan.  What you can't see in Bill's picture is that the land is elevated to the right of the hole. As a result, the hole slopes much more right to left than the picture shows.  In addition, its fits perfectly on the land and looks very natural (except for that extra bunker . 

If your tee shot comes to rest on the right side of the green, getting down in two is extremely difficult given the slope and typical Hackensack green speed. Hackensack has an excellent set of greens and this is just one of them.

Cheers

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The 12th at Hackensack is most definitely a Redan, and it is a superb one. It was built by Banks in the 1920's, his first ever solo effort.

The stupid little bunker short of the redan bunker was added in the 90's and it is my number one goal in life to have it removed...The main bunker needs to be deepened to its original depth. But the kick mound is excellent, and the green has a perfect right to left tilt. What the pictures do not show is a great spine running diagonally right to left down the center of the green. Hit the wrong side of this spine and you will be lucky to walk off with a par.

Bill

Bill

I keep my understanding of the template holes quite close to the originals.  The hole isn't blind so it isn't a Redan.  Blindness is one of the key ingredients and often that the first aspect which so called Redans eliminate.  The problem with this is the running shot is just given away - it doesn't need to be earned in the same way NB's Redan does.  Again, Hackensack's looks a good hole and I can certainly see why people mistake it for a Redan because the hole is very much influenced by the Redan strategies. 

Can people not see the profound difference between this


and these?





Ciao

[Ed Oden]

John

I got my ideas of a Redan from the Redan.  I know people poo poo some of the elements, but I think about half a dozen elements come together to make this a truly exceptional hole.  When CBM talks about turning a green on a plateau he has simplified the whole far too much. 

IMO, the main differences between Yeamans and NB are:

1. Yeamans is a full view hole. 

2.  NB's green will feed back left (if there is enough juice) from the front of the green.  Yeamans will not do this.  One has to hit the rear hump as the line, otherwise, the ball stays right and leaves what amounts to as an all-world 2 putt. 

3. If one hits the landing zone at the right height at NB, the ball will feed.  At Yeamans, there is almost a false front.  One has to carry the middle of the green then use the hump or take the chance of banging one along the ground and hope.  To me, there is one clear play at Yeamans assuming the course is firm  and that is to carry the green.

All this said, I believe Yeamans 6th to be a terrific hole, but more a take on a Redan rather than a Redan - which is fine and probably better than trying to re-create a Redan.

Ciao

Sean, Sean, Sean.  I rarely disagree with your take.  However, I am afraid this post sounds like a man who has taken but a single swipe from the 6th tee at Yeamans.  I can say without hesitation that the ball will absolutely feed from front to back and from right to left.  In fact, in all my plays I have seen very few shots find the left side of the green via any other plan of attack.  Only the crispest high long iron will hold if it lands on or past the ridge.  What you can't do when trying to feed the ball is to fly that same crisp high long iron into the upslope on the front right side of the green as it will stop.  But a low runner that lands on the right front or, better yet, short of the green will feed nicely.  And while a 2 putt from the right side is surely no bargain, I'll take my chances from there any day over either the front or back bunkers.  Now, as for whether the hole is a true redan or not, I can't say.

Best wishes,

Ed

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, the second "and these?" photo is of #7 at my home course in Pensacola.  It could best be described as "Reverse Redan-esque."   There is a swale across the green dividing front level from rear, so a good part of the green is blind or only slightly visible.  There is a definite left to right "kicker" slope on the left, which I used on Sunday to get a ball into the swale about 15' short of the hole. 

I really like template holes that utilize the concepts of the originals, not dead copies, of which there don't seem to be many.

[Sean_A]

John

I got my ideas of a Redan from the Redan.  I know people poo poo some of the elements, but I think about half a dozen elements come together to make this a truly exceptional hole.  When CBM talks about turning a green on a plateau he has simplified the whole far too much.  

IMO, the main differences between Yeamans and NB are:

1. Yeamans is a full view hole.  

2.  NB's green will feed back left (if there is enough juice) from the front of the green.  Yeamans will not do this.  One has to hit the rear hump as the line, otherwise, the ball stays right and leaves what amounts to as an all-world 2 putt.  

3. If one hits the landing zone at the right height at NB, the ball will feed.  At Yeamans, there is almost a false front.  One has to carry the middle of the green then use the hump or take the chance of banging one along the ground and hope.  To me, there is one clear play at Yeamans assuming the course is firm  and that is to carry the green.

All this said, I believe Yeamans 6th to be a terrific hole, but more a take on a Redan rather than a Redan - which is fine and probably better than trying to re-create a Redan.

Ciao

Sean, Sean, Sean.  I rarely disagree with your take.  However, I am afraid this post sounds like a man who has taken but a single swipe from the 6th tee at Yeamans.  I can say without hesitation that the ball will absolutely feed from front to back and from right to left.  In fact, in all my plays I have seen very few shots find the left side of the green via any other plan of attack.  Only the crispest high long iron will hold if it lands on or past the ridge.  What you can't do when trying to feed the ball is to fly that same crisp high long iron into the upslope on the front right side of the green as it will stop.  But a low runner that lands on the right front or, better yet, short of the green will feed nicely.  And while a 2 putt from the right side is surely no bargain, I'll take my chances from there any day over either the front or back bunkers.  Now, as for whether the hole is a true redan or not, I can't say.

Best wishes,

Ed

Ed

Of course you could be right, but my impression is if one hits the far right side of the green that ball isn't going to make it to the left side without a serious and very well controlled hook.  In fact we saw two guys stuck on that right side in our day day at Yeamans - the balls didn't go left to the pin and they never looked to be doing so.  Hence the reason I tried to be more aggressive and land up the green to take the hump left.  Unfortunately I went too far and went into the worst place possible.  Which, btw, goes against the idea of NB's Redan.  The worst place is the subject bunker on the left - unless you leave one in the bunkers short of the green - ouch.  

Here is a look at the hump area.


I am thinking one other possible difference in these holes.  Could it be that the Redan has a straighter green than these copies?  I don't recall such a pronounced "L" in NB's green compared to the others.  In other words, it could be that Yeamans green is quite a bit tougher.

Bill

Yes, I agree that it is far better to "Redan influenced" rather than Redan if the hole truly isn't a Redan - and I don't see how seeing the kick in can be called a Redan.

Ciao

[Ed Oden]

Sean, I haven't read this whole thread so this may have been stated.  But it seems to me you are confusing "The Redan" with "a redan".  As I understand it, CBM never envisioned copies when he went down the template path.  Rather, he just borrowed certain principles/characteristics that he felt were central to some of the best holes in Scotland.  No one ever said that "a redan" has all of the qualities of "The Redan".  I think the term "a redan" has evolved to mean a hole which embodies the traits CBM pulled from "The Redan".

As for the jokers you played with at Yeamans, the more I hear the less I like them.

Ed

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, I haven't read this whole thread so this may have been stated.  But it seems to me you are confusing "The Redan" with "a redan".  As I understand it, CBM never envisioned copies when he went down the template path.  Rather, he just borrowed certain principles/characteristics that he felt were central to some of the best holes in Scotland.  No one ever said that "a redan" has all of the qualities of "The Redan".  I think the term "a redan" has evolved to mean a hole which embodies the traits CBM pulled from "The Redan".

As for the jokers you played with at Yeamans, the more I hear the less I like them.

Ed

I agree with Ed and the small r "redan" characteristics.  Ours has a green set at an angle to the tee, a slope to play off to circumvent a nasty bunker set on the line of charm.  To me that is three of the Redan characteristics but I'll settle for "redan-esque."

[Mac Plumart]

Interesting point on a redan vs. The Redan.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()