[Ally Mcintosh]

There are many courses that in recent years have changed their hole sequencing without altering their base routing (i.e. with no noticeable redesign), quite often because of a clubhouse move... Examples that come to mind include Ballybunion, Banff and Baltray (the three 'B's)...

What other examples are there?... Why has the change been made?... Is it an improvement on the old routing?

Just curios to know what changes in routing occured at baltray?

A substantial one Thomas.... The old clubhouse used to reside by the current tenth green... Changed in the mid-80's...

The previous and original Simpson routing (with today's numbers) was:

out - 4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3
in - 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,10

[Thomas McQuillan]

There are many courses that in recent years have changed their hole sequencing without altering their base routing (i.e. with no noticeable redesign), quite often because of a clubhouse move... Examples that come to mind include Ballybunion, Banff and Baltray (the three 'B's)...

What other examples are there?... Why has the change been made?... Is it an improvement on the old routing?

Just curios to know what changes in routing occured at baltray?

A substantial one Thomas.... The old clubhouse used to reside by the current tenth green... Changed in the mid-80's...

The previous and original Simpson routing (with today's numbers) was:

out - 4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3
in - 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,10

the opening stretch would have been one of the best on the course

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are many courses that in recent years have changed their hole sequencing without altering their base routing (i.e. with no noticeable redesign), quite often because of a clubhouse move... Examples that come to mind include Ballybunion, Banff and Baltray (the three 'B's)...

What other examples are there?... Why has the change been made?... Is it an improvement on the old routing?

Just curios to know what changes in routing occured at baltray?

A substantial one Thomas.... The old clubhouse used to reside by the current tenth green... Changed in the mid-80's...

The previous and original Simpson routing (with today's numbers) was:

out - 4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3
in - 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,10

the opening stretch would have been one of the best on the course

It would have been a slow start though with two par-3's in the first four holes... what a four holes however!

The 10th (old 18th) used to play as a par-5... with the 1st (old 7th) a little shorter...

I think I like the new routing better although one criticism is that the clubhouse has poor views of the golf course... Whereas you can imagine the old clubhouse having perfect access to 1 & 10 tees as well as 9 & 18 greens...

[Mark Molyneux]

A classic Ross course, The Riverton Club, altered its routing (and relocated its clubhouse) primarily because the property spanned two counties, one of which was "dry" (the sort of "dry" that would radically infulence what sorts of drinks could be offered in the grille room). The 1900 clubhouse, the first tee, and 18th green were in the wrong sort of county for "those beers you owe me from the match".

I could be wrong in my recollection of the Belmont Club and their particular situation around the turn of the century (1896). I believe it was Belmont, which later became Aronomink in another lifetime and location. The original Belmont circa 1896 was constructed near a city park, so "near" that a few of the holes were actually in Fairmount Park. Inside the park, Pennsylvania's Sunday Blue Laws disallowed play on Sundays. So on Sundays the routing, in fact the actual number of holes changed on the Sabbath.

[Gib Carpenter]

At the Philadelphia Cricket Club's Wissahickon Course not only were the original 4-5-6 and 7-8-9 exchanged, but the original 4th (now 7th) at some point was converted from a long par 4 to a short par 5.

Per the original Tillinghast routing the front played 443-434-544=35 and the routing in today's terms went 1-2-3-7-8-9-4-5-6

As many of you know a while back PCC engaged Keith Foster to create a master plan for the restoration of the Wissahickon Course. The plan envisions converting the current 7th hole back to it's original par 4. Assuming the Club can find the political will (and financial resources) to complete the MP one of the questions will be whether to also return the course to the original routing.

Given the exhalted (particularly in the minds of the membership) stature of the current 9th hole (450 yd uphill par 4) as opposed to the "sportier" nature of the current (360 yds downhill par 4) 6th, such a change would surely be met with much hand-wringing (and not a few howls) from the membership. It does however beg the question of what is a more ideal way to end the front nine from a match play standpoint - the backbreaking #1 hdcp current 9th or the sporty #11 hdcp original 9th (current 6th)?

I think a good argument can be made either way. If the choice were mine to make, I guess, given that the 18th is the #1 hdcp hole, that it might be more fair (and fun) to return to the original routing.

[Jamie Barber]

How about TOC? Same holes, played in two different rotations. OK so not entirely in the spirit of your question

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Royal Liverpool sequence changed for Open Championship, but has reverted to the original sequence for normal play.
Kennemer uses a composite course for Dutch Opens, but I think the actual holes used to make that composite course have changed through the years.
Prince's sequence changed with the demise of the old clubhouse.

[Jason Topp]

The operators of one difficult Minnesota resort course (the Classic) switched nines and claimed it improved pace of play by 30 minutes.  I do not like the sequence of holes as well with the switch but 30 minutes is worth it.

[Chuck Brown]

Somebody beat me to mentioning ANGC's reversal of the front and back nines.

University of Michigan did the same.  (But Michigan's reversal was a reversion back to the original.)

Didn't Medinah #3 change routing around and across Lake Kadijah?

Didn't Congressional CC alter its routing?

Hasn't Royal Dornoch been re-routed?  Ditto Shinnecock?  Dornoch and Shinnecock might fall into the category of Courses-completely-rebuilt-to-be-as-we-know-them-today, right?  SFGC?

[Carl Johnson]

There are many courses that in recent years have changed their hole sequencing without altering their base routing (i.e. with no noticeable redesign), quite often because of a clubhouse move... Examples that come to mind include Ballybunion, Banff and Baltray (the three 'B's)...

What other examples are there?... Why has the change been made?... Is it an improvement on the old routing?

Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte did exactly that, about 50 years ago -- moved the clubhouse to the other side of the property and changed the routing to coordinate with the move.  This was not just a reversal of the nines -- the sequence was jumbled.  The old sequence was a Donald Ross sequence to go with the original Donald Ross routing.  I'm not sure who made up the new one.  Was it an improvement, or not?  I don't know.  In my 15 years as a member the Club has never played the old sequence, as far as I know, but this has me thinking that I might be able to find some real old-timers around who did play the old sequence and who might have some interesting (to me, anyway) insights on that.  Several years ago we eliminated two orginal Ross holes, replaced them with a driving range, and built two new replacement holes on the adjacent property we'd just purchased.  At the time I suggested to a couple of "the powers that were" then that we have a special event on the old sequence while we still had all of the original holes, but that never happened . . . apparently it was not an idea that appealed to others.

[jim_lewis]

Horseshoe Bend CC in Roswell, GA made a major change in the sequence of the holes about 15 years after it opened. Only the 1st, 17th and 18th remained the same. Originally you turned left after the 1st and played a dogleg right par 4 second. Later your turned right and played a short downhill par 3, which had previously been #7. I haven't been there in quite a while, so I don't know if they have changed it further.

I'm not sure, but I think Camden (SC) CC probably changed. They were originally affiliated with a resort hotel( like Pine Needles), but now play out of their own clubhouse. I think we have a member here who would know for sure.

[fred ruttenberg]

Philadelphia CC changed its routing when it moved its clubhouse.  The current 3rd hole was the 18th which Sam Snead misplayed to cost him the US Open.

[Matthew Rose]

I grew up playing a muni that changed routings. I don't remember exactly what the first one was, since it was 25 years ago and I was very young when it happened. I was actually kind of disapppointed though, because what I remember of the original one had better flow to it.

The 9th hole as it is today returns to the clubhouse but it doesn't quite make it all the way; there's a ravine behind the green forcing you to walk 200 yards down a maintenance road to the clubhouse. The 10th tee is right down below the clubhouse on the other side of the parking lot. At one point these were the 16th and 17th holes, I believe, so you'd finish 16 and then walk 200 yards past the clubhouse and the parking lot and play 17 and 18, which were two very tough holes to walk. The routing was changed so you finish your turn at 9 as you make the long walk. The holes which became 17 and 18 were much flatter holes (though #11/old #18 was a much better hole).

The 5th was previously the 9th, which was just on the other side of a railway line from the clubhouse. The old 10th was changed to the 6th and was right in front of the clubhouse. The 11th green was right next to the 10th tee and also next to the clubhouse. Theoretically, you could start a round at 1, 6, 10, 12, or even 13 (12 was a really short par-3). Conceivably you could finish on 5, 9, 11, 12, or 18. There were two and three hole loops all over the place and we frequently made our own routings.

It is actually fun to look at the overhead and try to come up with alternate routings. There might be 8 or 10 different ways you can do it and still have returning nines.

[Phil McDade]

I grew up playing a muni that changed routings. I don't remember exactly what the first one was, since it was 25 years ago and I was very young when it happened. I was actually kind of disapppointed though, because what I remember of the original one had better flow to it.

The 9th hole as it is today returns to the clubhouse but it doesn't quite make it all the way; there's a ravine behind the green forcing you to walk 200 yards down a maintenance road to the clubhouse. The 10th tee is right down below the clubhouse on the other side of the parking lot. At one point these were the 16th and 17th holes, I believe, so you'd finish 16 and then walk 200 yards past the clubhouse and the parking lot and play 17 and 18, which were two very tough holes to walk. The routing was changed so you finish your turn at 9 as you make the long walk. The holes which became 17 and 18 were much flatter holes (though #11/old #18 was a much better hole).

The 5th was previously the 9th, which was just on the other side of a railway line from the clubhouse. The old 10th was changed to the 6th and was right in front of the clubhouse. The 11th green was right next to the 10th tee and also next to the clubhouse. Theoretically, you could start a round at 1, 6, 10, 12, or even 13 (12 was a really short par-3). Conceivably you could finish on 5, 9, 11, 12, or 18. There were two and three hole loops all over the place and we frequently made our own routings.

It is actually fun to look at the overhead and try to come up with alternate routings. There might be 8 or 10 different ways you can do it and still have returning nines.

That would be this course:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40066.0/

[Richard Phinney]

Banff for instance, has to be the biggest blunder on that scale, I know of.

Could not agree more.  To me, that change in sequencing alone lowers it on the Doak Scale by half a point.

[Doug Wright]

The current version of the Broadmoor East course has had its hole sequence changed in the last 20 years or so. It used to head away from the clubhouse/hotel and not return until the 15th hole (current 18th); now it returns to the clubhouse/hotel with the former 18th—the par 5 where Nicklaus won the US Amateur over Charlie Coe—now the 3rd.  I’m pretty sure they did it because the current 18th provides more room and better gallery visibility/theater  etc. for major championships like the US Amateur and Senior Open that they’ve held in the past 15 years. I think the current version is better, as the par 4 18th with the second shot over the pond and the clubhouse/hotel behind is a nice finisher. The East course itself isn't the original as we know--it's a composition of Donald Ross holes and RTJ holes; the West course has the rest of the original Ross course holes as well as RTJ holes. I note the Ross and RTJ holes below.

Current/Old #s 1/1 (Ross), 2/2 (Ross), 3/18 (Ross), 4/16(Ross), 5/17(Ross), 6/3(Ross), 7/4 (RTJ), 8/5(RTJ), 9/6 (RTJ)
                      10/7(RTJ), 11/8(RTJ), 12/9(RTJ), 13/10(RTJ), 14/11(RTJ), 15/12(RTJ), 16/13(Ross), 17/14(Ross), 18/15(Ross).   

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()