[Carl Rogers]

My top candidate (from my own little world wide knowledge) would be the 3rd at ANGC. 

Observing the hole through the years, the best players in the world have yet to fully figure out how to play the hole.

[Alex Miller]

18 at Olympic (Lake)
18 at TOC
1 at TOC
11 at Merion (East)
1 at Merion (East)
8 at CPC
13 at CPC
5,6,7 at Crystal Downs

There's so many others and they're definitely under-appreciated.

[John Moore II]

I think they're under appreciated because they are hard to figure out as a concept. I mean, why have a hole with little risk/reward element be that short? Why not just make it 15, 20 or ever how many yards shorter? I think thats why these holes don't get much respect.

[jim_lewis]

I agree with the choice of ANGC #3. It looks simple enough but the risk/reward is all about hitting the green, especially with a left hole location, which offers a very shallow target. Leave it short and the ball rolls down a steep slope back into the fairway leaving a tougher shot that the one you just missed. Hit is just barely over the green and you are left with a treacherous slick chip that if hit just a little too hard, will wind up down the same slope. A well executed approach will yield a birdie putt. A slight mis-hit and you are lucky to make bogey.

[Mac Plumart]

Here's a hole at my home club that seems to fit the bill.  The trick on this hole is be accurate.

From the tees I play the hole is 343 (358 from the tips)



Here is a view from the tee box.  I try to aim at the bunker on the right, but beware OB right and that steep hill.  If you are left, you might be wet and you most likely will be blocked off from the green.




The real test is the approach...if you are short you are wet...if you are long, you will have to chip downhill towards water...but if you hit decent tee ball (250-260) you will only have 80ish in.



The trick on this hole is simply execution.  You can make birdie here, but lots of doubles are made here as well. 

[Tim Martin]

6 at Winged Foot West

[John Moore II]

Mac: To me, that hole has very little strategy. There is no preferred line into the green because the fairway isn't wide enough to let there be any other lines and such. The only strategy is to pop something down there just short of the bunker and a little left of the left side of that bunker, pretty much aim at the left edge.  Then loft a wedge onto the green. Fairly boring if you ask me, and thats what I think is the whole problem with these type holes.

[Mac Plumart]

John...

I agree.  I think I mentioned twice that the whole deal is accuracy and execution.  Hit the right side of the fairway and hit a good wedge shot.  Do it...and you get a birdie...don't and you make a mess.

The interest is if you are playing a match and your opponent messes up...that is a chance for you to take the hole, but don't screw your tee shot up or your approach.

I think using these types of holes every now and again are ok as they give your brain a break...make the choices obvious, but require execution.  But don't over-do it as the "boredom" you refer to overtakes the "break" I refer to.

Just my opinion...you and other may differ...that is fine.

[Tim Martin]

Here's a hole at my home club that seems to fit the bill.  The trick on this hole is be accurate.

From the tees I play the hole is 343 (358 from the tips)



Here is a view from the tee box.  I try to aim at the bunker on the right, but beware OB right and that steep hill.  If you are left, you might be wet and you most likely will be blocked off from the green.




The real test is the approach...if you are short you are wet...if you are long, you will have to chip downhill towards water...but if you hit decent tee ball (250-260) you will only have 80ish in.



The trick on this hole is simply execution.  You can make birdie here, but lots of doubles are made here as well. 

Mac-I don`t recall seeing 6 sets of tees before. Hard to say there is not a different set for every skill level. Interesting.

[Mac Plumart]

.

[Matthew Petersen]

John...

I agree.  I think I mentioned twice that the whole deal is accuracy and execution.  Hit the right side of the fairway and hit a good wedge shot.  Do it...and you get a birdie...don't and you make a mess.

The interest is if you are playing a match and your opponent messes up...that is a chance for you to take the hole, but don't screw your tee shot up or your approach.

I think using these types of holes every now and again are ok as they give your brain a break...make the choices obvious, but require execution.  But don't over-do it as the "boredom" you refer to overtakes the "break" I refer to.

Just my opinion...you and other may differ...that is fine.

There's a decision on this kind of hole, but not in the way a driveable hole presents the decision. Here, the question is more like, how well do you know your game and are you able to effectively play to your strength?

As I look at the hole, I know driver is out--I'd knock it in the creek. I could hit 3 wood with a little draw down into the bottom. It looks like I'd then have roughly 60 yards, uphill. That's a bit dicey for me. So maybe I hit iron off the tee and try to leave it back somewhere that gives me more of a full shot. Then again, doing that, I might not end up with a flat lie. These are all things that a good player should have go throgh his head before deciding on the tee shot on this sort of hole. I think it's a nice variety of challenge.

[Tim Martin]

Mac-What I mean is the diagram shows 6 distinct tee boxes. Certainly gives alot of options when setting up the course. Looks like a better hole from the green or gold markers.

[Mac Plumart]

Matthew...that is actually a great analysis.  Your point about not having a good lie is solid.  The closer you get to that creek, the better your lie...but that in and of itself is an issue because you don't want to get too close (obviously) and the bunker comes into real play the closer you get as well.  But if you lay too far back the ground is very undulating and sloped.  Nice work!

EDIT...Tim, I like the greens now.  But the whites were great when I was just coming off surgery.  My wife and son like the reds.  The tips get tricky even for the long hitters because the course is tight. 

[Tim Gavrich]

I like holes in the 340-360 range.  Such holes tend to have more severe greens and can therefore sneak up on players.  Birdie, par, or bogey are eminently possible so they're very good match play holes.

I think angled fairways are best on these sorts of holes.  A player could hit a long iron and a mid-iron or a driver and a sand wedge.  I like it.

[Tim Martin]

Matthew...that is actually a great analysis.  Your point about not having a good lie is solid.  The closer you get to that creek, the better your lie...but that in and of itself is an issue because you don't want to get too close (obviously) and the bunker comes into real play the closer you get as well.  But if you lay too far back the ground is very undulating and sloped.  Nice work!

EDIT...Tim, I like the greens now.  But the whites were great when I was just coming off surgery.  My wife and son like the reds.  The tips get tricky even for the long hitters because the course is tight. 

Mac-That hole certainly requires you to think about what distance you would like to have on the second shot. Looks like a fun hole.

[jeffwarne]

Here's a hole at my home club that seems to fit the bill.  The trick on this hole is be accurate.

From the tees I play the hole is 343 (358 from the tips)



Here is a view from the tee box.  I try to aim at the bunker on the right, but beware OB right and that steep hill.  If you are left, you might be wet and you most likely will be blocked off from the green.




The real test is the approach...if you are short you are wet...if you are long, you will have to chip downhill towards water...but if you hit decent tee ball (250-260) you will only have 80ish in.



The trick on this hole is simply execution.  You can make birdie here, but lots of doubles are made here as well. 

All the hole needs is 3-4 more teeboxes (+ one at 150 yards  )

[Tom_Doak]

These are called "drive-and-pitch holes" in all of the old architecture books.  And they're all over them, whereas, hardly any of the Golden Age architects wrote about "driveable par 4's".  [In fact, I am still not sure how to spell it, because the word is NOT IN ANY of those books.]

Drive and pitch holes are the holes most subjected to obsolescence because of architects' and developers' desire to get every course to 7000 or 7200 yards.  There just hasn't been room for these holes.  If you make one par-4 in the driveable range, you have to compensate by making another par-4 over 400 or 420 yards, and you've lost out on two drive-and-pitch holes.

I have built lots of good holes in this range, which players often mistake for driveable par-4's -- usually to their own detriment.  For example, I never thought of any of the par-4's at Ballyneal as holes where someone should try to drive the green, although there may be downwind days where it's theoretically possible.  Same goes for #6 and #16 at Pacific Dunes.

[Ben Sims]

These are called "drive-and-pitch holes" in all of the old architecture books.  And they're all over them, whereas, hardly any of the Golden Age architects wrote about "driveable par 4's".  [In fact, I am still not sure how to spell it, because the word is NOT IN ANY of those books.]

Drive and pitch holes are the holes most subjected to obsolescence because of architects' and developers' desire to get every course to 7000 or 7200 yards.  There just hasn't been room for these holes.  If you make one par-4 in the driveable range, you have to compensate by making another par-4 over 400 or 420 yards, and you've lost out on two drive-and-pitch holes.

I have built lots of good holes in this range, which players often mistake for driveable par-4's -- usually to their own detriment.  For example, I never thought of any of the par-4's at Ballyneal as holes where someone should try to drive the green, although there may be downwind days where it's theoretically possible.  Same goes for #6 and #16 at Pacific Dunes.

Tom,

I agree that many of your holes that folks call "driveable" are not in fact, driveable.  However, I think what separates your examples above is angle and severity.  I have gotten to the green on 16 at Pac with a worm burner 3 wood, but the severity of terrain threw it into the swale.  An addition to your examples would be the 8th at Kingsley.

Whereas when I think "drive and pitch", I think of a hole like 15 at Crystal Downs or 3 at NGLA.  For some reason, I think of distances between 340-390 as drive and pitch.  Not something in the 300-330 category that isn't driveable based on angle and terrain.

[Ally Mcintosh]

My favourite drive and pitch hole: County Louth 14th

[Tom_Doak]

[
Tom,

I agree that many of your holes that folks call "driveable" are not in fact, driveable.  However, I think what separates your examples above is angle and severity.  I have gotten to the green on 16 at Pac with a worm burner 3 wood, but the severity of terrain threw it into the swale.  An addition to your examples would be the 8th at Kingsley.

Whereas when I think "drive and pitch", I think of a hole like 15 at Crystal Downs or 3 at NGLA.  For some reason, I think of distances between 340-390 as drive and pitch.  Not something in the 300-330 category that isn't driveable based on angle and terrain.

Ben:

If you really meant to say the third hole at NGLA there, C. B. Macdonald just rolled over in his grave [and is getting ready to curse you].

Your worm burner on 16 at Pacific Dunes is just not from the tee I intended for you to play.  The idea was to keep the middle tee markers up on the back tee when it was downwind, but they've never really done that.  It's 40 yards longer from there, and a lot less people would be thinking about driving it to the right then.

[Cliff Hamm]

The fifth at Newport National is one of my favorites.  327 from the tips or 296 from the 6500 yard tees.  Here is a course map.  Could not get a close up of just the fifth:



Not the best pictures but what I have.




Drivable for long hitters as it plays shorter then posted yardage if you cut the dogleg, but the odds of hitting the small elevated green, guarded by two bunkers is extremely small.  327 from the tips, 296 from the 6500 yard tees. So, the decision is where to lay up. For the longer hitter one can go for the valley in front but risk is sand, rough and lie not level.  Laying back leaves a longer shot, often easier, with better chances for a level lie, although fairway is still rolling.

Second shot from 90 yards or so:



As noted green is small with back to front slope.  If green is missed not an easy pitch.

One of my favorite holes on a very, very good course.

[Jason Topp]

These are among the most enjoyable holes to play if well designed.  The key is to somehow make the tee shot important so that an approach from 150 yards or an approach from the wrong angle is much more difficult than a well placed driver.

[John Moore II]

John...

I agree.  I think I mentioned twice that the whole deal is accuracy and execution.  Hit the right side of the fairway and hit a good wedge shot.  Do it...and you get a birdie...don't and you make a mess.

The interest is if you are playing a match and your opponent messes up...that is a chance for you to take the hole, but don't screw your tee shot up or your approach.

I think using these types of holes every now and again are ok as they give your brain a break...make the choices obvious, but require execution.  But don't over-do it as the "boredom" you refer to overtakes the "break" I refer to.

Just my opinion...you and other may differ...that is fine.

There's a decision on this kind of hole, but not in the way a driveable hole presents the decision. Here, the question is more like, how well do you know your game and are you able to effectively play to your strength?

As I look at the hole, I know driver is out--I'd knock it in the creek. I could hit 3 wood with a little draw down into the bottom. It looks like I'd then have roughly 60 yards, uphill. That's a bit dicey for me. So maybe I hit iron off the tee and try to leave it back somewhere that gives me more of a full shot. Then again, doing that, I might not end up with a flat lie. These are all things that a good player should have go throgh his head before deciding on the tee shot on this sort of hole. I think it's a nice variety of challenge.

I gotta know what tees you're playing because I can tell you that I can't reach that creek from the tees I play and I hit the ball as far as anyone not on the Long Driver's of America tour. Though I agree with how you think to play the hole, 3 wood or 2 iron off the tee and a wedge onto the green.

[JMEvensky]

I like 17 at Southern Hills.Not many flat spots to play from in the fairway and the green is no bargain.

[Mac Plumart]

John...

I thought he meant the creek on the far left!!!   

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