Did they always get it right?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I am thinking of two courses in particular, Sitwell Park and Bramall Park. Both had MacKenzie courses which were subsequently made less challenging (not many years later) for one reason or another, for better or for worse.

I'm not expecting anyone other than a MacKenzie scholar (Neil) or a south Yorkshireman or Cestrian of phenomenal age to comment on either of these specific courses, but are there instances of a golden age architect going too far (I'm not saying that either of these courses was over the top)?

Could Sitwell Park be restored - there are photos - and would it be a better course if it were?

This is not meant to be a MacKenzie bean-feast. They were the examples that came into my head. Include Ross, Macdonald, Flynn, Colt, Simpson, Fowler, von Limburger, Arana and all the others about whom I know painfully little.

[Sean_A]

Mark

From what I can see of Colt's courses in the UK, he rarely got it wrong.  Indeed, I can't think of a single instance where I thought something really messed up was going on.  Now, one could make the argument that as a body of work, perhaps Colt relied too heavily on certain elements such as severely raised greens or the one that sort of bugs me, framed greens where the corners are raised.  I suspect some of this may come from using the same builder quite often. 

For Dr Mac, I think we have to question his bunker style.  It isn't a dead certainty that there were maintenance problems or that individual clubs didn't call for these "flowery" bunkers, but I am suspicious that Dr Mac didn't totally think out the consequences of his preferred styling of bunkers.  So many courses altered the style that one has to at least second guess what went on.  Mind you, in all truth, Dr Mac could have been a victim of circumstances.  That said, when money was tighter late in his career, Dr Mac did tone down his bunker style and quantity.

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean, You are absolutely right about his bunkers. There is no way anyone could have maintained his early raised bunkers, flooding down, every rain storm, onto the greens below - with weekly bunker raking only introduced at Alwoodley after the First World War.

In fact the criticisms at Sitwell and Bramall Parks were the greens. He later built greens on the Sitwell Park scale in the US and these were accepted and are still, sort of, there.

But I'm not limiting it to bunkers or greens....

[Jon Wiggett]

One thing that has struck me about many of the courses that I have played of both Colt and Dr. Mac is that their routing has always seemed to fit not only the parcel of land but also their own style. Even with alterations to details the holes of both seem to sit comfortably in their landscape. You can almost always pick out new holes to their courses as they just don't seem to fit. Moortown's new holes are prime examples of this.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I think there was something written by Mackenzie himself suggesting he felt he went too far with some things such as some of the greens at Sitwell Park.

[Tony_Muldoon]

One of the things I would hope for in a decent book about Colt is a close look at what was put there and what has survived.  Tandridge used to claim 365 bunkers, Thurlestone had huge no's too.  Hard to undertand what he was thinking of with that kind of no.  He must have known they wouldn't all survive in a memebers club.