[Anthony Gray]

  I would like to start a new school of architecture. It is called The Give Me Something School Of Architecture. It is inspired by the CBM quote "Every great hole has some kind of a twist". Its birthplace can be found at places named Cruden Bay,North Berwick and Prestwick. Recent generations have even adapted it whether knowingly or not. Some examples are as follows.


  To the occasional rock wall..I say thank you. The first at Prestwick,that hole at NB and 17 at TOC.

  To the occasional tree in the sand trap..gracious mi amigo. Found on Pete Dye's best from time to time.

  Roads. We love you. TOC,NGLA...

  The extreemly deep bunker..at times named after anatomy features...thank you for giving us a shot at glory.

  Water,water,water. Make us avoid it. We want to look at it every chance we get rather an ocean,river or stream.
  Let us feel like gladiators when we land on that island.

  Railroad ties. Can you hear that train a coming. Use them to catch our eye.

  The bold super sized bunker...Hell..everbody likes it.

  The blind shot....we want suspense. Where did it go? Somebody's close..who done it?

  The volcano bunker...where did that come from?

  A burn with masonry. Eye candy at its best.

  The overhanging tree. What kind of shot should I try?

  Every hole should have one of these. The post round conversation should be full of "What hole had the ___?" or "Oh yea, that is
  the hole with the _______."

   AS FAR AS SET UP

  Give us the short par 3. Les than 120. A postage stamp or PB 7.

  A long par 3. Maybe a driver is needed.

  The short par 4. Drivable by some. Give us a chance at glory. Maybe make this green the most difficult if you wish.

  The long par 4. Only reachable on your best day. The challenge of a forced up and down or a glories 2 putt par on your best day.

  A par 5 that that scares you into laying up. We love these.

  Greens that vary. Size,shape and slope.

  All in all make each hole memorable. Even if it is just with eye candy,but give us something.

 
 

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

There was a time back in the 1980's or early 90's when there were a bunch of courses built as you describe.  Mike Hurdzan left the basement of an old house in the middle of a fairway at Devil's Paintbrush.

To me, it was overkill, an admission that the holes themselves were not sound enough on their golfing merits.

I love a course which has some natural quirk to it on a few holes.  But it should be balanced out by other holes where the old-fashioned values of design (length, angle of green, etc.) rule the day.

[Anthony Gray]

  Come to think of it there is a chimney in a bunker at Fields Ferry in North Georgia.

  I just don't want to feel like I'm playing the same hole or green over and over. Pinehurst 2 the first sevveral holes are similar only different lengths. Royal Dornoch's 3,4,5 is the same. That is the charm of Cruden Bay and North Berwick.

  Anthony

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think it ought to be the "let's give em something to talk about" school. I agree you can overdo it, but if a long held tenant is to make every hole memorable, then it works.  I see no reason why working with the unatural features isn't as "authentic" in principle as working with the natural ones to create a hole of distinction.

I have twice proposed leaving old railroad tracks in the fw (one on the first at the Quarry, the other never built) but they were removed by other "saner" folks while I wasn't looking.  I liked that idea better than Pete Dye's built railroad tie walls. At the Quarry, there are actually a few more remnants left.  The Quarry also has a long par 3 that requires driver from all but the most superhuman among us!

I have found people remember holes that are beautiful, hard, or odd (in hopefully a good way, but they sure do remember the bad odd ones, too)

I would add some of Mike Strantz stuff - particularly the ultra long or wide greens, or the huge 18th at Indianwood in Lake Orion, MI as great "stuff that makes you go huh?" features that are great for variety and CAN play well, with no admission of guilt on it being a weak hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I remember when we were building Pacific Dunes, Mr. Keiser was worried about the 12th hole and the 15th, and whether they would stack up with the rest.

I never could understand why he was worried about #15, with that fabulous plateau green site staring him in the face [even if it was five feet higher to start with].  I understood about #12, because it seemed plain compared to the rest, but I finally said something to Jim Urbina along the lines of:

"Geez, we've got a bunker in the middle of #2 fairway with a dead tree sticking out of it; alternate fairways on #3; 450 yards of clifftop on #4; a twenty foot deep bunker on #6; some crazy mounds short of the green on #7; a nasty pot bunker on #8; alternate greens on #9; and back to back par-3's after that.  How much more do you think we should pile on?"

[Anthony Gray]

  Forgive me please for constantlt bringing up Cruden Bay but it is a good example of "twists'.

  1-OB left off the tee pinches the landing area and the slant makes for a neat shot for the slicer.

  2-The green site is perfect. Like hitting into a volcano.

  3-280 uphill blind par 4 semi punch bowl green.   WOW

  4-The valley that swallows the short shot.....AND the castle and village.

  5-Tee shot that is elevated and decends into a canyon.

  6-The burn

  7-Narrow approach between two dunes.

  8-270 par 4 elevated green betwwen 2 mountains.

  9-What a view.Par 4 that is not always reachable.

  10-Tee ball from a mountain top and a burn.

  11-No easy misses.

  12-Lack of width is a nice change up. The first and maybe only hole where gorse comes into play.

  13-Burn and perfect slightly hidden green.

  14-Blind approach to a bath tub.

  15-Blind par 3 with a driver.

  16-Sunken green that sets up better for bouncing the ball in. Not many par 3's play this way.

  17-Burried viking ship dead center of fairway. Bottle hole?

  18-Hidden burn that can catch you if you over avoid OB left.

  None of these holes resemble the others. Overall you have width and lack of width. Short and long. Easy and difficult. Small greens and large greens. Flat ones and sloped ones.

  Anthony


 

[Anthony Gray]

Jeff:

I remember when we were building Pacific Dunes, Mr. Keiser was worried about the 12th hole and the 15th, and whether they would stack up with the rest.

I never could understand why he was worried about #15, with that fabulous plateau green site staring him in the face [even if it was five feet higher to start with].  I understood about #12, because it seemed plain compared to the rest, but I finally said something to Jim Urbina along the lines of:

"Geez, we've got a bunker in the middle of #2 fairway with a dead tree sticking out of it; alternate fairways on #3; 450 yards of clifftop on #4; a twenty foot deep bunker on #6; some crazy mounds short of the green on #7; a nasty pot bunker on #8; alternate greens on #9; and back to back par-3's after that.  How much more do you think we should pile on?"

  The twist with 15 is that it is framed with gorse left and right. It is different than the others in that sense. Much like 12 at Cruden Bay it may be the only hole that utilizes gorse as a hazard. It is a new look and feature that comes late in the round. "This looks different"

  Anthony

[Mac Plumart]

Having played with Anthony this last weekend, we had a good conversation about this very topic and I think we had a great example of differing architecture types with the courses we played...Harbour Town and Chechessee Creek.

Harbour Town seemed to "give us something" every hole.  Real tight drive on various holes; in particular hole one, massive green fronting bunker on 13, massive fairway on 18, tree right in the middle of the damn fairway on 16...not to mention the alligator patrolling the rough...coffin bunker on 17, etc, etc, etc...interesting, unique, fun, challenging, exciting.

Then at Chechessee it seemed to be the exact opposite.  The club and property were wonderful.  Great golfing escape feeling...old school club house...wonderful.  But the course was repetitive.  In fact, all 18 greens sloped back to front, 16 of those 18 quite severe, and 14 of those 18 greens are right around 30 feet deep by 20 feet wide (approximately).  So, once you got to the green or were approaching it...it was the same hole over and over and over.  Nice course...great bunkering   ...but that green was used too much.

I think this is what Anthony is talking about...I don't think he means that every hole needs to be over the top wild...simply interesting.

Frankly, I don't disagree...but I kind of like subtle courses as well.

[Anthony Gray]

   One of the most talked about finishes in golf is found at Carnoustie.

  15-Blind 2nd,Spectacle Bunkers

  16-Driver par 3

  17-Island fairway

  18-Fronting burn.

   ARG

 

3

[john_stiles]

Mac,

That's funny.  Because I have always thought of Harbor Town, save the 17th and 18th, as pine trees and more pine trees, mostly narrow or if not,  you feel enclosed by pines, and greens about the same size.   

Even though I play it at every opportunity,  there is some sameness because of the pines and greens.

Now,  up the road a bit,  I like Secession because the wind often creates such a varied course from day to day.

And there is a wide variety of the greens shapes, contours, angles, and such at Secession as compared to HT.

And there are a lot more temptations at Secession.

[Mac Plumart]

John...

I find that interesting as heck.  Secession seemed much less varied than Harbour Town to me.  I really, really liked it and have only played it twice thus far, but the recurring theme was hit your shot and carry the marsh.

You are right that Harbour Town is tight, but I thought it opened up on the back nine and especially the last few holes.

"Big World Theory" I supppose...both courses were very fun to play.

[Brett Hochstein]

Tom D.,

That sort of reasoning for balance and "piling on" is why the tenth green complex at Kingsley is one of my favorite.  It is probably the simplest and overall flattest green site on the course, but it gives the golfer a much needed breather at a great point in the round, especially after enduring the 9th.  I know personally I've taken a few deep breaths out there and felt respite, but I didn't totally realize it after about 10 or so plays.  I also never saw it before with the trees, but I have to believe the elimination of them has greatly helped this effect.

[Anthony Gray]

John...

I find that interesting as heck.  Secession seemed much less varied than Harbour Town to me.  I really, really liked it and have only played it twice thus far, but the recurring theme was hit your shot and carry the marsh.

You are right that Harbour Town is tight, but I thought it opened up on the back nine and especially the last few holes.

"Big World Theory" I supppose...both courses were very fun to play.

  HT has more of the unique little features. A tree in a bunker or in the middle of the fairway. Three par 3's over water. Other water features. The overhanging tree by the green. It gives you more without being overdone. The greens are small but vary in slope and shape.

  Anthony

[Jeff_Mingay]

Brett,

Interesting you mention the 10th hole at Kingsley. This hole stood out to me the first time I visited the course (under construction), because of its subtlety. And yes, it's a much better hole today minus trees. (Funny, I was also there while they were cutting trees and Mike D. and Joe Hancock were installing new bunkers at the 10th fairway... how long ago now? I can't remember...)

As you know, even though you describe the 10th geren as the "simplest and overall flattest green site on the course", it's Kingsley... the 10th green is really not that simple, and certainly not flat!

[jonathan_becker]

  The blind shot....we want suspense. Where did it go? Somebody's close..who done it?
 

Anthony,

A few of these every round never hurt anyone.  I love it when there are 2 balls right next to the pin and you get the chance to get in your buddy's face when you find out your ball is closer!!

[john_stiles]

Secession requires playing over the many seaside conditions,  ie  varying seasonal (and daily !) winds.  

HT is more or less sheltered by the many many pines and the similar small greens are well, similar.

Actually Anthony would fit in very well as a member and amazingly, would fit just as well as a caddie at Secession given his prowess (definition no 2 in Websters) as caddie, and personality.

Now that I think about it,  Anthony needs to join Secession either as a member or caddie.

[Anthony Gray]

Secession requires playing over the many seaside conditions,  ie  varying seasonal (and daily !) winds.  

HT is more or less sheltered by the many many pines and the similar small greens are well, similar.

Actually Anthony would fit in very well as a member and amazingly, would fit just as well as a caddie at Secession given his prowess (definition no 2 in Websters) as caddie, and personality.

Now that I think about it,  Anthony needs to join Secession either as a member or caddie.

  John,

  Get me on. As a plyer or caddy. If the caddies are segrigated it may be best. There are some club houses I shouldn't be in. I haven't played HH yet either. In some ways it looks a little too Rossy for me.

  Anthony

[Brett Hochstein]

Jeff M.,

Of course, you would have to understand that I was speaking relatively about the 10th.  There is no such thing as "flat" there, obviously. 
That work you mention was in 2006.  I must have just missed you as I got on crew there about mid-May when all the clearing and rough shaping had just finished up. 

[Jeff_Mingay]

I knew you were speaking relatively, Brett 

2006, eh. Wow. Times flies.

[Emil Weber]

Anthony,

That is a great school of architecture. Combine these this school with the strategic school and you have the perfect course

p.S.: I think you could just name it the "quirk" school of architecture, thats shorter

[Mac Plumart]

Emil...you are correct The Quirk School of Architecture is shorter, but The Give me Something School of Architecture is more Anthony!   

[Eric Smith]

Emil...you are correct The Quirk School of Architecture is shorter, but The Give me Something School of Architecture is more Anthony!   

I like the 'Hushpuppy School' myself

[Mac Plumart]

 

[Ulrich Mayring]

I like that style as well. It makes a course much easier to remember and thus more talked about as well.

There's nothing wrong with a hole having all the right shot values, but there needs to be something unusual on top to make it truly great.

Ulrich

[Brian_Ewen]

   One of the most talked about finishes in golf is found at Carnoustie.

  15-Blind 2nd,Spectacle Bunkers

  16-Driver par 3

  17-Island fairway

  18-Fronting burn.

   ARG

 

3

Pedantically , Spectacles is the 14th , not the 15th.

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