News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Derek_Duncan

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2010, 08:47:29 PM »
John,

I think there were zero other players on the course, although some could have teed off later on the first nine and I'd never have known. I was by myself and never saw anyone. I'm told they do very few rounds right now--in the double figures--due to the small membership (somewhere around 50 at this point and not all play golf). They didn't have a "staff" on duty, in fact.

I don't know if this is a club that holds itself out "only for the rich and famous." Those are your words. It's not an inexpensive club to join to be sure, but neither are many clubs of this type. To be fair, they're in a nascent period at the moment and aren't positioning themselves as a finished product. The golf course construction is finished, but they're nursing the conditioning. My intention of posting pictures is to highlight an extreme end of the brown scale, which so many here profess to embrace, and also show the discussion group some seriously good new architecture. You've been there, do you disagree?
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Cliff Hamm

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2010, 09:00:19 PM »
Just checked out the website.  Given the price of land/houses it is no wonder that there is only a small membership and very few on the course.

paul cowley

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2010, 09:43:56 PM »
Hey Derek

What a joy to be idling thru GCA and click on a thread and go whoa....that's one of mine! Strange times indeed.

The course has yet to have an opening for many reasons that I need not discuss here.

It's been almost six years in progress.

It was never meant to be designed by Mike Strantz, but was the first course that Forrest Fezler and his talented group worked on after his passing. And it shows.

We built all the ricefield holes to simulate what was next door in the wetlands....but upland of course.

I call the 15th the CROSS for obvious reasons....a truely one of it's kind in the design world. Probably my favorite for reasons only a stepchild might appreciate. I love it but not sure it's mine!

Let's hope this course makes it.

Thanks for your posts and interest.

Paul

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

John_Cullum

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 09:46:01 PM »
Derek-I don't think there is any dispute that this was originally intended to be extremely exclusive. Some of the first residents were Ben Afflec and J Lo in what was reported to be the highest price residential real estate transaction ever in the State of GA. There are only some 350 homesites on around 4000 acres. Total concierge service is provide for the residence, down to the filling of the pantry and stocking the bar before they fly in.

Come on, someting is amiss here. The golf course is dead or dormant save for the weeds growing around the edges. There is no staff.

"We finally beat Medicare. "

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2010, 10:00:30 PM »
I have been telling all you dedicated contributors on here for some years now that this Paul Cowley is a God-damned genius. Maybe I fun and clown around too much on here and you didn't take me seriously. I'm not funning or clowning around on this post. Please take me seriously and believe me that this man is a damn genius and golf course architecture may not even be the only thing he completely excels at in this way. In my opinion, he takes "outside-the-box" thinking to sublimity (or is it sublimeness? :)). I have no idea at all what makes for real outside-the-box genius but I do know he completely appreciates history and that might make for a true understanding of it.

A pretty potent combo for potential excellence in GCA if you really think about it.

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2010, 10:03:08 PM »
"The golf course is dead or dormant"

I'm glad to see the "or" in there Johnnie Boy because it ain't exactly the same thing! But if you think it is, tell it to the grass and then see what happens after the next rain event! ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2010, 10:07:35 PM »
Boy, I'll tell you what...

Given time and money and opportunity, based on the looks of it, I'd be down there to play it in a New York minute.

I bet if Ran put those pics up in black and white people would be drooling by this time.

John_Cullum

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2010, 10:20:56 PM »
"The golf course is dead or dormant"

I'm glad to see the "or" in there Johnnie Boy because it ain't exactly the same thing! But if you think it is, tell it to the grass and then see what happens after the next rain event! ;)

TP

Some of it looked dormant, and some of it looked dead. I'm sure by spring something will grow.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

paul cowley

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2010, 10:58:31 PM »
Thanks Tom
I hope you are not forgetting the TP hole #6.....right to left diagonal hazard restricting drives, with a greenside mound and bisecting internal green ridge that created a driving option to get the best angle in depending on the flag location?

I built it as we discussed. Maybe you can stop by and see your're creation on your way to the Fernandina Beach Muni Golf International Mixed Bi Sexual Scramble Qualifying Playoffs?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 11:03:15 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2010, 11:36:00 PM »
"Thanks Tom
I hope you are not forgetting the TP hole #6.....right to left diagonal hazard restricting drives, with a greenside mound and bisecting internal green ridge that created a driving option to get the best angle in depending on the flag location?

I built it as we discussed."




Guys, that right there is exhibit A why I think Paul Cowley is a genius.

That was maybe four years ago or so. I can't even remember the circumstances that well. I think I was driving back home from Florida and I stopped in to see Paul at St Simons Georgia where he lives. We went over to Ricefields which had been up and down under a couple of owners for years. The course was routed and pretty much all designed up and constructed and waiting to be grassed but for some reason hole #6 even though routed in place wasn't really "designed up" at all.

So we spent some hours out there on it talking potential strategies and such and how to accomplish and "design-up" the intracacies of some strategies. We were out there with a shaper Paul said was really good---but we're running around the hole saying; "what about this and that and all and what it would mean strategically?"--- some big things but a lot of little things too guys. It was getting on in time so finally Paul turned to the shaper and said: "Have you got that, even those little details on the front left of the green?" and I remember the guy saying; " Ive got it."

Then I was back on I-95 heading north and I haven't seen the hole or Ricefields since.

Look at the detail of what Paul Cowley said about that hole in the quote above!!

I've been responsible for maybe six holes in my life (most of them pretty controversial, by the way) and he's been responsible for hundreds of holes in his life and he can remember all those details of that one hole that one day at Ricefields and I really can't.

What does that tell you about the difference between Paul Cowley and me and probably the rest of us with GCA? I don't know what I think in (conceptual words or whatever) but this man thinks in complete and apparently highly developed mental pictures!

You guys mark my words about him. Matter of fact, I would like my words about him to be memorialized for posterity so at least I can get the credit in the future for telling the world of GCA---"I told you so about Paul Cowley."
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 11:43:30 PM by TEPaul »

John_Cullum

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2010, 07:22:51 AM »
TP- Face it. You most appreciate the fact that he gets hammered and posts a bunch of crazy shit
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Jason Topp

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2010, 07:46:47 AM »
The course does look nice.  My only problem with playing on dormant grass on a sunny day is that I find the glare makes it difficult to follow the ball.  For those that play that type of golf regularly do you have any recommendations?  Sunglasses?  A colored golf ball?

Derek_Duncan

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2010, 07:55:10 AM »
John,

Not defending the business model, or the private nature of the club. When Hampton Island was conceived x number of years ago the prospect of selling secluded high end lots and club memberships to people who wanted to be catered in a certain way obviously seemed like a better idea than it does today. There have been lots of exclusive clubs built around the country that are buffered by outrageous real estate. Hampton Island is hardly unique in that sense, but if they have the ability to hold true to their goals, more power to them. Whoever has the means to join is going to get one of the best courses on the Atlantic seaboard that I've seen.

Paul,

Thanks for chiming in. I was told by an employee that Strantz was the original architect--thanks for setting the record straight.

Here's the 6th hole as discussed by Tom and Paul:

From the tee it looks like the hole should bend to the left


The hazard runs diagonally away from right to left, but you actually want to be down the shorter right side


The green is a modified half-pipe set at an angle and sloped back-to-front


Then you notice this big mound short and left, with the green running down the slope away on the other side--coming at the pin from this angle is no good


Looking back and across

www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

John_Cullum

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2010, 08:17:36 AM »
Derek-I understand. I am actually pretty familiar with the whole project. For those of you who have never been, one of the most fascinating things about Hampton Isl is that very few people in Georgia even know about the place. There has been absolute zero marketing in the area. There has never been an ad on the local television stations or newspapers. There is no billboard on the interstate, there's not even a sign at the gate. (The gate is not guarded, and is just a swing gate that is locked with a chain and padlock). There was a Savannah realtor tangentially connected to the marketing, but she wouldn't disclose the location. She would only vaguely mention this ultra exclusive development on a nearby barrier island.

I first became aware of the project when I noticed this huge berm about 30 feet tall built just back in the woods off of the I95. I asked a few people in Savannah what it was and none of them knew. Eventually I figured out what was going on.

The project has actually been around for a pretty good while. They were pretty well in full mode for a couple of years before the real estate bust. Given the price of the lots, they should have recovered a good chunk of their inital investment. The Affleck sale alone may have grossed close over half of the acquisition cost, but that is speculative (although easily determinable through public records).

Lately the development is the center of a court battle for control. The original developer agreed to give up 60% of its stake to an investment group if they could provide 30 million in financing by 11/15/06. They only came up with around 10 million, and on 11/16/06 the founders notified the capital investment group of their default so they would only get 10% stake instead of 60%. Since then, it's been a fiasco. The local judge in small town Georgia was pretty clearly favoring one side, but that has somewhat been addressed by the GA Supreme Court. I would guess it's fair to say at this point, no one knows who is really running the place.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tim Nugent

Re: The Beauty of Brown
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2010, 08:38:20 AM »
Not much is mentioned of Davis Love as an architect.  Yet it seems that every time one of his courses is posted about, comments are favorable.  Is he not near or at the top of the list (Crenshaw not withstanding) of professional golfers (past and present) who are designing courses? 

Perhaps it is because, by now, the public associates the "Celeberty Architect" as a figurehead, whereas, Crenshaw was assute enough to give the Architect first billing.  It could have just as easily be Crenshaw & Coore.

How does Crowely & Love sound?  Or better yet Crowely/Love, or for the GCAer's  - Love Paul Crowley.

Paul, thanks for holding up the ASGCA.  The work looks fantastic.  I hope people can look to this as an example of what can happen without  "the great site".  Like many purests, I judge a golf course on the rroting, pace, and internal strategies of the individual golf holes.  Things like views, vistas, surroundings, wihile nice (or bad) eye-candy, do not weigh on my determinaton of excellence.  Looks like this, coupled with your efforts in Baja, clearly show your abilities.
Coasting is a downhill process

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2010, 08:44:25 AM »
“Here's the 6th hole as discussed by Tom and Paul:

From the tee it looks like the hole should bend to the left

The hazard runs diagonally away from right to left, but you actually want to be down the shorter right side


The green is a modified half-pipe set at an angle and sloped back-to-front

Then you notice this big mound short and left, with the green running down the slope away on the other side--coming at the pin from this angle is no good”




Derek:

Thanks for the description; it’s beginning to come back to me now. I think we were out there discussing that glorious strategic concept that might be termed, “How can we create something that might appear to some to be real confusion but really isn’t?” Sometimes I’m into shit like that as a baseline concept and Paul might be too sometimes or at least he’s more than willing to discuss it at length which is part of what’s so cool working with him in the field. I also love the idea of suckering a good player into hitting a great shot that looks like the right choice but really isn’t. Personally, I think that's what makes some of the best "multi-strategy" holes like Riviera's #10 as great as they are.



John Cullum said:

“I would guess it's fair to say at this point, no one knows who is really running the place.”



John:

I kind of like that too; it goes along with my preference for something that’s a puzzle wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma. How cool is it to play Ricefields for the first time and then ask who owns and controls the place and then being told; “That’s a good question, we’ve never been too sure about that.”
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 08:49:52 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2010, 08:54:59 AM »
"How does Crowely & Love sound?  Or better yet Crowely/Love, or for the GCAer's  - Love Paul Crowley."


Tim:

They all sound pretty good. Paul is actually a very easy going guy and may not even mind or mention that his name's spelt wrong. Personally I would favor the name of Love Paul Cowley & Katz LLD, IRS, SEC, IOU and Co.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 09:03:26 AM by TEPaul »

Derek_Duncan

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2010, 09:01:41 AM »

Derek:

Thanks for the description; it’s beginning to come back to me now. I think we were out there discussing that glorious strategic concept that might be termed, “How can we create something that might appear to some to be real confusion but really isn’t?” Sometimes I’m into shit like that as a baseline concept and Paul might be too sometimes or at least he’s more than willing to discuss it at length which is part of what’s so cool working with him in the field. I also love the idea of suckering a good player into hitting a great shot that looks like the right choice but really isn’t. Personally, I think that's what makes some of the best "multi-strategy" holes like Riviera's #10 as great as they are.



Tom,

Mission accomplished. Even though I toured the course before I played, by the time I walked to the sixth hole I'd forgotten what lies ahead. I did in fact think the hole bent to the left and, using the phalanx of bunkers on the left as a cue, tried to hit a high draw over the top of them (which would have left me completely out of position). Instead I hit a low cut and although I ended up in the strip bunker short of the hazard I was on the correct side. But it was counter-intuitive to aim out to the right (away from the bunkers) from the tee.

Then you get to the landing zone and see this regal greensite out there across the hazard, all alone and propped up like an altar. It's just a great vision and a great approach shot to try to hit from no matter where you are in the fairway/rough/sand.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2010, 09:14:16 AM »
"Tom,
Mission accomplished. Even though I toured the course before I played, by the time I walked to the sixth hole I'd forgotten what lies ahead."


Derek:

In that case you and I are sort of birds of a feather but I can sort of do you one better. I walked the course with those guys too and then we spent the rest of the time on #6 because I think it was the only hole left that wasn't totally conceptualized and done. I forgot not only what lay ahead but also what had come before but that's just me, don't you know? That's probably why some of my friends call me TE "Vacuum" Paul.

Where did you say that course is? Did you say it's in Waycross Georgia? Or is it Whycross?

Adam Russell

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2010, 09:22:47 AM »
Tom,

It's just north of beautiful Eulonia, GA and just south of the Isle of Wight - can't miss it ;)
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2010, 09:51:01 AM »
Is the Isle of Wight that Georgia coastal island that has always been a communiity of people with speech impediments? I think I've been there but it's been berry, berry many years now.

John_Cullum

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2010, 09:52:34 AM »
To you yankees, we all have speech impediments down here
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Adam Russell

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2010, 10:01:45 AM »
Is the Isle of Wight that Georgia coastal island that has always been a communiity of people with speech impediments? I think I've been there but it's been berry, berry many years now.

What a horrible thing to be known for - no wonder they switched islands and went private. I'd rather be from Whycross personally...but I'd take Eulonia if you gave it to me!
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

TEPaul

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2010, 10:05:25 AM »
Interesting point John. Maybe that's true with some yankess but not me. I love the variety and dynamics of the English language, particularly the American English language and for years now I've had among many dictionaries a "Southern" Dictionary. The pronunciations and some of the etymologies in that Southern Dictionary are just wonderful.

Only one time in my life have I run into an American I literally couldn't understand. It was this little girl behind the counter of something like a KFC in South Carolina I think. She tried to take my order and I think I said to her about five times; "I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what you're saying to me." Finally she just got someone else to take my order.

John_Cullum

Re: The Beauty of Brown--Ricefields
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2010, 10:09:37 AM »
It can happen. She was probably from Daufuskie, where they speak a dialect known as Gullah. Around Savannah (including Isle of Wight, Riceboro, and surrounds) they speak a dialect known as Geechee. It can be great entertainment to be in the presence of you yankees when you run into this stuff. I am going to email you something
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tags: