[JC Jones]

Actually, I thought of it; see post #22.

Now, before you two turn this thread into a measurement of your respective man-hoods, lets keep it about uncovering one of the great mysteries of one of the greatest golf courses of all time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

If you object to Seminole citing Raynor as one of the top experts in the 20's, perhaps you should contact them and have them revise the second edition of "The Story of Seminole"

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
If you object to Seminole citing Raynor as one of the top experts in the 20's, perhaps you should contact them and have them revise the second edition of "The Story of Seminole""




Whoa, hang on Pat. Who do you think I am, Moriarty or MacWood?


I have no problem at all with Seminole citing anything they want to cite that's historically accurate, even if it has nothing to do with Seminole. Why would I? If they want to cite Raynor was one of the best architects of the first half of the 1920s no problem at all. I'm definitely not a Moriarty or MacWood with their fixations on proving clubs and their history books wrong about basically irrelevent facts and then trying to make a big deal out of it regarding their architectural histories.

I have only looked briefly at the recent Seminole history book. But I am interested to see today on here that the club mentioned that the architect who suggested moving some of the west ridge into the middle of the property to resolve low spots to sea level. That's what I suggested a few days ago an architect might have been recommending.

[TEPaul]

"It appears that E.F. Hutton and those involved in Seminole with him, had a vision for what they wanted.
Wyeth had designed a cottage for Hutton at the Everglades Club and he had also designed many winter homes in the Palm Beach area, thus he was commissioned to design the clubhouse."


Pat:

That's interesting. Does it happen to also say when Wyeth designed a cottage at the Everglades club for E.F. Hutton? Can you imagine why I might ask that?

[Phil_the_Author]

Just an idea or thought to consider with NOTHING whatsoever to back it up. This is based upon two things. First, that there were evidently, not two, but THREE prominent architects giving proposals and secondly, that often times behind mistaken stories such as "Ross wanted this project real bad because he didn't get ANGC" there are true events that are similar enough to have been the inspiration.

In September of 1928 it was announced that Donald Ross was awarded the commission to design the Colonial Golf Club in Atlanta, Georgia. This was to be a very high profile project put together by real estate developer Harry Ansley. Two weeks later Ansley went to New York and came back with Tilly! He was given the job the last week of September and was in Atlanta completing the design after staking out the course the first few weeks of October.

Now we are unsure of where Tilly was during the rest of 1928, but it certainly isn't a stretch to see him traveling down to Florida and being asked to give a proposal for Seminole, especially as he was 'in the neighborhood', so to speak, at the time. Ross losing the Atlanta job, especially in the manner that it did, would certainly not have made him a happy camper and definitely would have given him reasons for really wanting the Seminole commission if Tilly was giving a proposal.

Just a wild thought and idea that might provide an avenue of research...

[Patrick_Mucci]

"It appears that E.F. Hutton and those involved in Seminole with him, had a vision for what they wanted.
Wyeth had designed a cottage for Hutton at the Everglades Club and he had also designed many winter homes in the Palm Beach area, thus he was commissioned to design the clubhouse."


Pat:

That's interesting.
Does it happen to also say when Wyeth designed a cottage at the Everglades club for E.F. Hutton?

No, it doesn't provide the date the cottage was built, only some details on some luxury items.
It does say that Hutton and Wyeth were golfing companions at Everglades, which I believe was created around 1919, the same year that Wyeth arrived in Palm Beach

"The Story of Seminole" indicates that two (2), not one (1) prominent architects advocated leveling the western ridge.
Both provided sketches, which might cause some to lean toward Flynn as one of the architects.

While the founding 12 were wealthy men, leveling the western ridge had to be a costly endeavor.
Ross with his Scottish roots may have been an appealing candidate because his construction plan would have to be far less expensive than the others.

The western ridge also served other functions, amongst them, it was a buffer to everything west of the ridge and it served as an excellent observation point for viewing the vista to the east, the golf course and the Atlantic Ocean.

Interestinly enough, and Jim Sullivan should pay attention, it's stated that the bunkers were "turfed affairs" designed and constructed to deflect poor shots..."

Ross seems to have been keenly aware of the seaside winds and heavy rains in South Florida, designing the greens and surrounds to naturally drain, minimalizing maintainance requirements.

The crowned greens coupled with the slopes and false fronts deflect and divert balls into the concave bunkers transforming a near miss into a wild miss.

Can you imagine why I might ask that?

Yes.

[JESII]

Did the sentence finish..."and the golfers could never quite firgure out why...?

Just askin'...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip,

While it's speculation, it's not imprudent to think that Seminole was interested in creating an exceptional golf course and as such they solicited bids/imput from the most prominent architects of the day.

While there might be others outside of the pool of seven (7) mentioned in "The Story of Seminole", those individuals seem like the most likely candidates, although I don't think you can dismiss Langford and Moreau.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Did the sentence finish..."and the golfers could never quite firgure out why...?

Just askin'...

The answer should be obvious especially after you've observed golfers repeating the procedure, making the same mistake, over and over again.

Did you ever see the movie "Tin Cup" ?

That Ross was a smart cookie, understanding angles, the wind, green and green surrounds, slopes and most important of all, golfer's egos.

[TEPaul]

JC:

Unless something turns up that apparently hasn't been considered on here yet, I would have to say it can be fairly well established, I think, that around the time Seminole was getting into its planning stage the most visible golf architect at the time in Florida for clients like that (Seminole) other than Ross was Flynn----eg the Boca Ratons, Indian Creek, Cleveland Heights, Floridale etc, even though the chronology seems a bit off on Indian Creek (1930), for instance. And not to even mention the connection to the same kind of people with Flynn in some other areas like DC and, NY and LI.

[JC Jones]

JC:

Unless something turns up that apparently hasn't been considered on here yet, I would have to say it can be fairly well established, I think, that around the time Seminole was getting into its planning stage the most visible golf architect at the time in Florida for clients like that (Seminole) other than Ross was Flynn----eg the Boca Ratons, Indian Creek, Cleveland Heights, Floridale etc, even though the chronology seems a bit off on Indian Creek (1930), for instance. And not to even mention the connection to the same kind of people with Flynn in some other areas like DC and, NY and LI.

While I agree it was likely Flynn and to a lesser extent, Langford, I'd still like to find some more "proof."

Where is Macwood with his research machine?

[TEPaul]

"No, it doesn't provide the date the cottage was built, only some details on some luxury items.
It does say that Hutton and Wyeth were golfing companions at Everglades, which I believe was created around 1919, the same year that Wyeth arrived in Palm Beach"


Pat:

That's interesting and it sort of chronologically flip-flops my point. If Wyeth built E.F. Hutton a cottage in 1919 at the Everglades Club that makes some sense. In 1920 Hutton married Marjorie Merriweather Post, arguably the richest women in America at the time. In 1923 they began to built Mar-a-Lago (now owned by Trump) that opened in 1927. They divorced in 1935. Their only child was Nedinia Hutton, the movie actress we know as Dina Merrill.

Speaking of actresses, Marjorie Merriweather Post's first husband was Edward Close who from a later marriage became the paternal grandfather of the great American actress Glenn Close.

So I guess that makes Dina Merrill and Glenn Close what my father used to call "callabash cousins."





"Where is Macwood with his research machine?"


JC:

Oh please don't do that. Well, I'll take MacWood's research machine but please let's keep his analyses of what that research actually means out of any of this or the next thing we know he will be arguing that a William Robinson was Seminole's underbidder.  

By the way, JC, I can tell you that when Flynn was working on the Boca Raton courses (right below Palm Beach) he was down there so much that his daughter told us he brought his family down there and put her in school there. So he was definitely in the area a lot when Seminole was being planned. His client on the Bocas was Clarence Geist, definitely a man part of that super upper echelon world albeit a pretty controversial guy who became a very close friend of Flynn's.

[TEPaul]

"While the founding 12 were wealthy men, leveling the western ridge had to be a costly endeavor.
Ross with his Scottish roots may have been an appealing candidate because his construction plan would have to be far less expensive than the others."


Pat:

Well, you can assume that if you want but I doubt it was even remotely inexpenive to design and build that very unique water-works system which was Ross's way of addressing the flooding problem in the middle of the course.



"Interestinly enough, and Jim Sullivan should pay attention, it's stated that the bunkers were "turfed affairs" designed and constructed to deflect poor shots..."



Uh-oh, in that case the recent history book may've somewhat repeated what is something of an historical mistake. Those original bunkers were not much grassed down by Ross but that's an issue I was sworn to secrecy about maybe 6-7 years ago. That the club thought they were essentially involved the basic misdating of an important photograph. Those original bunkers were apparently supposed to mimic waves and they were fairly high sand flashed faces.

About the crowned greens, don't speak to Pete Dye about that as he will not agree that was Ross either at Seminole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,

Langford &Moreau opened an office in Fla in 1921.

They did a project on Stock Island, at Key West described like this:
  
"Drilling machines were busy setting holes for the dynamite to blow the stretches of plate rock that covered large areas of the fairways, to be followed by the great scarifying machines plowing through the softer stratas, while massive pulverizers crushed the harder lumps of coral into a granulated mass. The scattered chunks of flinty rock that resisted these destructive forces were picked by hand and hauled to the mounds for filling. After reducing this rock to soil, a smooth turf bed was prepared by drags, harrows and top dressing, and then spotted with Bermuda."

This place was completed and opened in 1925 and the complexity involved would have been a pretty good selling point for their competence and ability to handle any type of project.

[TEPaul]

I think I can tell you one thing with quite a bit of assurance and that is the principles of Seminole were pretty much that same East Coast crowd, particularly New York. Edward F. Hutton as the supposed lead guy of the club is a giveaway.

Pat:

Does the recent history book mention the names of the 12 or so principles? I would love to take a look at that list. I think one of the most interesting thing about that era is how much and how often some of these "groups" seem to just network various architects like they apparently did their friends and society. There seems to be a remarkable correlation that way back in those days with golf architects. The building architects some of those crowds used seems to be far more diverse and cross-regional than the golf architects were. I find some of the reasons the building architects were that way to be really fascinating particularly with some of the people from Philadelphia back then who seemed to have some very strong vestiges of a building architecture inferiority complex! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

"While the founding 12 were wealthy men, leveling the western ridge had to be a costly endeavor.
Ross with his Scottish roots may have been an appealing candidate because his construction plan would have to be far less expensive than the others."

Pat:

Well, you can assume that if you want but I doubt it was even remotely inexpenive to design and build that very unique water-works system which was Ross's way of addressing the flooding problem in the middle of the course.

You've missed the point, again.
The cost to level the western ridge would have been considerable.
That's what Ross's two rivals wanted to do.
Since Ross didn't want to level the western ridge, his costs to construct would be substantially lower than that of his two rivals, and a good reason to go with Ross's plan.



"Interestinly enough, and Jim Sullivan should pay attention, it's stated that the bunkers were "turfed affairs" designed and constructed to deflect poor shots..."

Uh-oh, in that case the recent history book may've somewhat repeated what is something of an historical mistake.

Those original bunkers were not much grassed down by Ross but that's an issue I was sworn to secrecy about maybe 6-7 years ago.

Early aerial photos don't seem to confirm that.

That the club thought they were essentially involved the basic misdating of an important photograph.
Those original bunkers were apparently supposed to mimic waves and they were fairly high sand flashed faces.

About the crowned greens, don't speak to Pete Dye about that as he will not agree that was Ross either at Seminole.

I would disagree with Pete on that as well.
Photos from 1930 would seem to contradict Pete's contention.
Drainage, particularly surface drainage had to be a, if not THE, major consideration, not duplicating waves that can't be seen from anywhere on the golf course except from the very back of the 14th tee, and then, only if you turn around and face east.

With greens that are elevated above their nearby fairways, along with strong winds and heavy rains that buffet the property, drainage had to be a major concern.  Sand faced bunkers at every green would be:
Unstable, given the sandy soil that comprises the two ridges and green sites.
Subject to daily washouts
Subject to blow outs

The grass tongues that border and extend down into the bunkers are stabilizing factors

There's no way that the fronting bunkers on holes like # 5 could have the faces rising to the level of the green

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think I can tell you one thing with quite a bit of assurance and that is the principles of Seminole were pretty much that same East Coast crowd, particularly New York. Edward F. Hutton as the supposed lead guy of the club is a giveaway.

Pat:

Does the recent history book mention the names of the 12 or so principles?

Yes, it lists the other 11 initial founders along with the 116 founding members

I would love to take a look at that list. I think one of the most interesting thing about that era is how much and how often some of these "groups" seem to just network various architects like they apparently did their friends and society. There seems to be a remarkable correlation that way back in those days with golf architects.

Many of the names are recognizable, some, the icons of American business/finance
And, many are members of prestigious clubs elsewhere

The building architects some of those crowds used seems to be far more diverse and cross-regional than the golf architects were. I find some of the reasons the building architects were that way to be really fascinating particularly with some of the people from Philadelphia back then who seemed to have some very strong vestiges of a building architecture inferiority complex! 

[TEPaul]

"You've missed the point, again.
The cost to level the western ridge would have been considerable.
That's what Ross's two rivals wanted to do.
Since Ross didn't want to level the western ridge, his costs to construct would be substantially lower than that of his two rivals, and a good reason to go with Ross's plan."


No Pat, I'm not missing the point at all but you probably are. If the middle of that site was raised by moving some of the western ridge into it that sophisticated and perhaps expensive water-works solution of Ross's may not have been necessary. The two ideas therefore become not much more than a single problem cost analysis comparison.

Do you have any idea what it would have cost to raise the middle of the site by moving some of the western ridge into it? Of course you don't, and either do I. Do you have any idea what Ross's sophisiticated water-works solution cost? I doubt you do and either do I. Nevertheless both solutions were aimed at the very same problem and a cost analysis comparison therefore would have been necessary to the original principles. That cost analysis comparison would be very interesting to know, and if you don't think so or you don't recognize why it is you who really misses the point.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Would you mind listing the rest of those 12 principles for me? If not, tomorrow I'll just walk across the field and get the book from my neighbor who belongs to Seminole and has it.



"Early aerial photos don't seem to confirm that."

Early photgraphs don't seem to confirm what?


On the last part of your post #40, I just don't know the answers to that but I might tend to trust Pete Dye, a well known architect and long time Seminole member rather than you, at this point. What makes you think you know more about that issue than Pete does?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Would you mind listing the rest of those 12 principles for me? If not, tomorrow I'll just walk across the field and get the book from my neighbor who belongs to Seminole and has it.

EF Hutton
William J Baxter
James F Burke
James I Bush
Eban Byers
Jay F Carlisle
Thomas L Chadborne
J Gordon Douglas
Warner L Jones
Hunter S Marston
Martin Sweeny
Barclay H Warburton[/size]



"Early aerial photos don't seem to confirm that."

Early photgraphs don't seem to confirm what?

Pete's claim that the original greens at Seminole weren't crowned, falling to the perimeters or sloped to the perimeter.


On the last part of your post #40, I just don't know the answers to that but I might tend to trust Pete Dye, a well known architect and long time Seminole member rather than you, at this point. What makes you think you know more about that issue than Pete does?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"You've missed the point, again.
The cost to level the western ridge would have been considerable.
That's what Ross's two rivals wanted to do.
Since Ross didn't want to level the western ridge, his costs to construct would be substantially lower than that of his two rivals, and a good reason to go with Ross's plan."


No Pat, I'm not missing the point at all but you probably are. If the middle of that site was raised by moving some of the western ridge into it that sophisticated and perhaps expensive water-works solution of Ross's may not have been necessary. The two ideas therefore become not much more than a single problem cost analysis comparison.

Ross's solution was neither sophisticated or expensive.
Seminole acknowledges that his water drainage plan was economical.
Leveling the western ridge would have been very costly, there's NO comparison

Do you have any idea what it would have cost to raise the middle of the site by moving some of the western ridge into it?
Yes, I do

Of course you don't, and either do I.

Speak for yourself

Do you have any idea what Ross's sophisiticated water-works solution cost?

Yes, it was cheap by comparison.
And, it wasn't sophisticated.
It was gravity operated, which, when I last checked, gravity was cheap.
Outfall pumps are not that expensive.
Ross plan was simple, effective and CHEAP

I doubt you do and either do I.

Again, please speak for yourself

Nevertheless both solutions were aimed at the very same problem and a cost analysis comparison therefore would have been necessary to the original principles.

Nonsense, there's no need for a cost comparison.
One method was inexpensive, if not cheap, the other a huge undertaking.
Common sense, not a cost analysis comparison, should tell you that

And, even if you raised the elevation of the course by 2, 10 or 20 feet you'd still have to devise a method for draining that section of the course and allowing the flow of water from the north along with dispatching the heavy rains that inundate the property.

That cost analysis comparison would be very interesting to know, and if you don't think so or you don't recognize why it is you who really misses the point.

You don't get it.
One project, leveling the western ridge was a huge undertaking, as was the transportation and shaping of that soil.
The other project, a simple excavation project with the creation of some trenches and shallow ponds, all gravity fed,
Ross's project was a study in minimalism, the other a massive undertaking that had to be very expensive and time consuming.

Ross produced Seminole for Hutton within 9 months of signing the contract.
I doubt another architect could have leveled the western ridge, transported and shaped the soil, dealt with the new drainage issues and produced a golf course in that time.

Stick to Gulph Mills, a club that you're intimately familiar with .

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Thanks for the list. I'm surprised I only directly recognize one of them---eg Warner Jones. That was the father of the Warner Jones I knew who's family was originally from Long Island and big in horseracing. The Warner I knew lived in Delray, and Louisville; he was one of the top horseman with his Hermitage Farm and he was the president of Churchill Downs. One of the funniest guys I ever knew but apparently one did not want to get on his bad side. Somebody did in Delray and Warner had three semi-truck truckloads of horse manure dumped on his front door.  

One day Warner and Dad were playing the 17th hole of Gulf Stream and this overbearing Washington lobbyist Warner didn't like came running over from the 13th hole to ask Warner the name of somebody in his group he wanted to suck up to. Warner told him the guy's name was Clarence Mollish and so the lobbyist went up to him calling his name. Of course that stupid name wasn't his name at all and Dad and Warner were on the ground laughing. Ever after that Dad and Warner called each other "Mollish."

Warner had one of the oddest and funniest idiosycracies I've ever seen. If you were talking to him and he really got interesting he would grab a handful of your shirt and he wouldn't let go.



"Stick to Gulph Mills, a club that you're intimately familiar with.   "


On that note, if you want to compete with or compare my knowledge with yours on the history of Seminole, architecturally or otherwise, then let's go for it. At the very least it would help your research ability vs your speculations and we would probably both benefit from it in the end. As you know, Pat, the interest in the minute details of the architectural creation and evolution of some of these significant courses has increased very many times in recent years and GOLFCLUBATLAS.com may thankfully have a lot to do with that. Nevertheless, for anyone to understand these kinds of details they have to have been or have to get involved with those clubs---there's just no other way to do it or shortcut it. You have with some of these clubs through your career in golf but some on here have never even been to these places and I will always maintain that just doesn't work if one really wants to understand their histories, architectural and otherwise. This has always been my problem with some like Moriarty and MacWood who get so fixated on the details of the architectural history of the likes of Merion, PV, Myopia etc. They assume they can do real analysis of those courses without ever even going to them or getting to know the recorded histories of those clubs. You just don't find that kind of stuff on the Internet. You can find it in repositories around the country but the clubs themselves are generally the best and the ultimate research resource.

[JC Jones]

I call thread jack.

[TEPaul]

"I call thread jack."


Well then, you started the thread, JC, and you should be able to call it yours so just bring the discussion back to where you think you want it to be.

In my opinion, some of the best of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is some of the side-roads and different avenues that contributors go down on various threads. To me, that is essentially what any imaginative investigative process is all about----various tangential avenues of inquiry. Over the years I've found some of the most important and relevent material in some of the most unlikely places and avenues of investigations which when you look back on it can sometimes be pretty far from the original subject's perspective or focus.

If you're interested I'll give you one or a few of the best examples of that I've ever known in all my time with this kind of stuff.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

One of the problems associated with research is that many clubs either lost their records or disposed of them, thinking that they had no value and that they were just taking up storage space.  Other clubs, through fires, renovations and floods lost their records as well.

If you look at the books that clubs have published about their history, few, if any focused on the architectural history, especially in a chronological order.  The "histories" tended to be oriented toward social and golf activities with very little devoted to architecture

Unfortunately, newspaper articles can have serious errors/flaws and can't be relied on without verification.
Even the 12-10-29 article JC posted on Seminole claimed that the tees on 1,9,10 and 18 radiated out from the clubhouse.
We've seen, over and over again, how newspaper articles got it wrong.
 
What was interesting in the 1929 Palm Beach Post was the article that only 300 people in the entire United States had incomes of $ 1,000,000 or more.  I wonder what that number would be equivalent to today.

The other thing that makes research so difficult is that many, many changes were undocumented.
Especially changes done in house.

I know of a club where the green chairman made changes to the golf course that were NOT approved by the Green Committee, Executive Committee, President or Board, hence absolutely NO RECORD of those changes exist other than in independent aerial photos taken by governmental agencies.

So, even if you had access to the Board minutes or Green committee minutes, you wouldn't be able to verify what took place, why it took place and how it took place.

I think that's a major frustration with trying to conduct research and craft a complete and accurate architectural history.

As to Tom MacWood and David Moriarty, I think their research efforts have been exceptional.

One of the difficulties is bridging the gap between the incomplete histories and the golf course as we know it today.
To some extent it requires interpolation and/or extrapolation and that's where there's a tendency to experience disconnects.

Whioe photographic evidence is invaluable, it doesn't tell you why and how, it only records a static image, void of any explanation.

There has to be an interesting history behind the introduction of the DA.
Likewise, I'd like to know why the right section of the 8th green was lobbed off, why the second green on # 9 was located and shaped the way it was, etc., etc.

The other difficulty in crafting club histories today is that few if any members remain alive who knew the details of the early changes.
50 years ago, you could find a dozen or so members who knew the details.  Today, that resource isn't available.

I believe that architectural histories will remain vague unless some clubs discover old records when they "clean house" or, if someone shows an interest and reads through old records, if they exist.

Lastly, even club histories have errors when it comes to the architectural elements, so, while those books are valuable, they don't represent infallible recollections

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