Locals writing letters to Pound Ridge in effort to convince them to lower prices

[Bob_Huntley]

Jay,

I have come late to this thread but I take it Pound Ridge is not a Municipal Facility. That being so, whatever the price being quoted by its owner is the price one pays for its playing.

When the San Francisco Opera jacks up the price when Placido Domingo sings, or some rock group fills out Dodger Stadium at some outrageous ticket price, do you plead poverty?

I have quoted this before and it still holds. My mother said to me when I was a very young boy," Bobby, life is unfair, get used to it."

Bob

[Adrian_Stiff]

As a Brit its quite hard to understand how your US model works. Its just too darn expensive, no wonder you come over here. Whilst I accept you got more costs with irrigation and subsequent labour, how come they are still plenty of places to golf cheap and where are the $50 dollar a go facilities... IS $50 THE RIGHT NUMBER FOR GOOD QUALITY GOLF or am I miles out, can you not have some sort of membership at say $200 per year which gives you membership so you can keep a handicap pay in competitions but pay say $35 per round? I dont dispute that this course is value at $235 if thats what it costs (if that make sense) but why the building of courses that need that sort of rake? I just dont get the $8,000 per year dues thing.... does anyone think its value.

[PThomas]

be interesting to see if he lowers the price?  who knows, cant hurt to try

maybe he would get more play to offset the price reduction

or maybe when demand stays low he will realize price is too high..of course if he's rich enough maybe he wont give a shit

kudos to the people for trying

[Will MacEwen]

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[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

You have to know the neighborhood that the course occupies -- it is in the upper atmosphere in terms of the people who live nearby and the $$ they have. We are talking about people who routienly are in the top 5% of income levels here in the States.

For those who scream poverty this would be no less than what Bob H said in his response.

Under the rationale of the people writing the letters to PR -- they might as well be sending similar letters to PB and claim the $500 price tag to play there is too high too.

Tiered pricing, as Doak suggested, would work best and still permit the club to charge premium rates for key tee times / dates.

[Tim Nugent]

Or maybe, if they piss him off, he'll raise the rate to $250 - just because he can!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Matt - I suppose the price is either too high or its not, but I am in the camp that its the owners choice. The only bit that perhaps seems weirdy is why have an open to all (if you can afford it) why not have a members club, if this area is affluent enough would this not work at $12,000 to join then $750 per month, would he get 600 members at that and maybe take guest fees at the $235. Alternatively if he wants to keep his open to all route, perhaps when you play for $235 you get a 30 day voucher to come back for $135, this is quite a good way of protecting your 235 price tag but its giving something back to the community and rewarding higher volume use.

[Michael Blake]

Have they considered simply playing twilight golf?  $105 after 5pm and $150 after 3pm.  Both those rates seem to be in their price point range.

That's what us commoners do when we cannot afford the regular rate.  We utilize twilight golf rates.  Or instead of playing Glen Mills regularly we play Jeffersonville regularly.




Rates & Policies

 
 
2010 Season Reservation Options and Rates:

 

   Advance Reservation Option:

8-days or further in advance booking window
2-day (48 hour) cancellation requirement
25% deposit requirement
 

   Advance Reservation Rates:

$195 per round
$150 after 3:00pm
$105 after 5:00pm
 

   Regular Reservation Option:

7-days or less booking window
2-day (48 hour)  cancellation requirement
No deposit required
  

   Regular Reservation Rates:

$235 per round
$175 after 3:00pm
$125 after 5:00pm
 

   Offseason Advanced Reservation Option:

8-days or further in advance booking window
2-day (48 hour)  cancellation requirement
25% deposit requirement
 

    Offseason Regular Reservation Option:

7-days or less booking window
2-day (48 hour) cancellation requirement
No deposit required
 

    Offseason Advanced & Regular Reservation Rates:   (January 1st through April 30th  2010)

$150 per round
$100 after 2:00pm
 

Rates:

Weekday and weekend green fees are $235 per person ($195 using our advance reservation option) May 1st  through October 31st.  This fee includes a golf cart or pull cart and complimentary use of the driving range & other practice facilities.
Twilight rates are $175 per person ($150 using our advanced reservation option) and apply after 3:00 pm May 1st through October 31st.
Super twilight rates are $125 per person ($105 using our advanced reservation option) and apply after 5:00 pm May 1st  through October 31st.
Off season rates are $150 per person January 1st through April 30 th .
Off season twilight rates after 2:00 pm are $100 per person January 1st through April 30 th .
Golfers will not be given refunds or rainchecks for holes not completed for any twilight tee times.
We do not offer any types of memberships or 9 hole rates.
Rental clubs and shoes are available.
Please call the pro shop for information regarding outings.
Please call the pro shop for information regarding our replay policy and non-golfer (rider) policy.
 

[Sean_A]

Matt - I suppose the price is either too high or its not, but I am in the camp that its the owners choice. The only bit that perhaps seems weirdy is why have an open to all (if you can afford it) why not have a members club, if this area is affluent enough would this not work at $12,000 to join then $750 per month, would he get 600 members at that and maybe take guest fees at the $235. Alternatively if he wants to keep his open to all route, perhaps when you play for $235 you get a 30 day voucher to come back for $135, this is quite a good way of protecting your 235 price tag but its giving something back to the community and rewarding higher volume use.

Adrian

I could be wrong, but I think a start-up club in that neck of the woods in this climate trying to fill 600 spots $9000 year isn't gonna work - for Pound Ridge.  

You can play on very reasonable courses for $50 and less in the States. Heck, I would say there are loads of good courses for $30ish which are roughly comparable to endless courses in the UK.  The difference is you may not quite get that odd freaky hole or three in the States and you often have to cue up for a long game. Whereas in the UK you can pay visitor fee of £25-40 quid on weekday and have the course to yourself if you plan half decently.  Every state is littered with good choices and some are very good.  This Pound Ridge deal is a completely different kettle of fish which is aimed at a totally different market.  

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

I have to agree with the sentiment that these kinds of things figure themselves out on thier own.

In the end, golfers in the area will vote with their wallets as to whether the rates are acceptablee or not.  And if the owner doesn't mind the losses, if thats the result, then thats entirely up to the owner.  I highly disagree with Pebble's rates, but if thier business model works for them then thats how the cookie crumbles...I either pay it, or I don't play it, simple as that. Golf courses are not a public need for everyone like Power, electric, healthcare, etc where active regulation is indeed needed.

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

When the original price was set the hope was that such an upscale daily fee layout -- the CCFAD model -- would attract players. The issue is more related to the demands of the course -- the price is a secondary consideration.

In regards to the club's status -- the owner has an aversion to the private club set-up that others have adopted.

The tiered pricing concept you mentioned is the best way to go in order to drive people towards the shoulder season or towards twilght golf possibilities.

[Jud_T]

I haven't lived there in a while, but I recall that there weren't a lot of great public options near NYC.  At the time we would have gladly paid a premium just to have a nicer public option that didn't require a 1 1/2 hour drive....

[Dave McCollum]

I can only wish we had the problem of reducing or retaining a $235 fee.  Good comments about junior rates.  They are the future customers.  We charge $5 weekdays, $10 weekends unless they play with their fee-paying parents, then they play free.  Folks around here bitch about $35 green fees.  Folks from big towns, when told the fee is $188, say "you misunderstood, I want to pay for the entire foursome."  Err, that is the foursome price with carts.  It's not the course; it's the scenery.

[Pat Burke]

The Get a Grip Foundation     Free Tutoring, free semi private golf lessons, free range balls, $1 golf after 2pm, $15 for parents with their kids

Our program exists due to our CEO Jay Miller, who also owns the golf operation at our host course
Education is our mission.  Growing the game is the side benefit.  We have 230+ kids per week getting free tutoring, golf lessons, and other assistance, at NO COST to the students.  We have an owner, staff, and benefactors that are committed to this (7 years to date).
There are 220+ kids on our waiting list, and due to fundraising struggles in the current climate, we are operating 4 days instead of 5 per week.
Education center, 5 tutors, 6 instructors.   We raise about $700k privately (no govt funds), and our program has grown from having a handful of HS golfers to over 40 this year.
It takes a special owner, staff, and benefactor to make a program of this scope work in a local area.  I am not of the belief that a development program MUST be this involved, but I also do not believe I can tell another golf course to let kids or adults play at any price other than what they feel is correct.
We do our part because we believe in it, and basically 2 men were the key to it.  I am blessed to be able to work there, and love what we do for the kids. 
Too often these days I read about what others SHOULD do.  The people of Pound Ridge could offer to mentor young golfers for a reduced rate, exposing youth to the game, earning a discounted rate.  Nobody is entitled to cheap golf.  Golf needs to develop players to survive, but golfers need to participate, not just owners and developers

[Jim Briggs]

Matt,

Are you saying that if the course wasn't quite as demanding, that golfers of a wider range of skill level would be lining up to pay $235?  Despite the zip code, I'm not sure thats whats holding it back.  Price is absolutely a factor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I always thought that pricing was a function of the quality of the product ?   ?    ?

What's gone wrong at Pound Ridge ?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The issue for PR specifically is that the course is way too tough for just about any player.

Getting repeat play back after tossing away two dozen balls isn't exactly a tempting proposition irrespective of the price.

I did say, you may have missed it, that tiered pricing -- with a conscious desire to boost shoulder season time frames would be a good way to go. Like I said before -- just check out the profile for the immediate zip code area. If the course were really something of note the price would not be the real stumbling block alone.

Pat M:

Don't know if you have played the course but PR is just very demanding and lost balls there are quite the routine for most players.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Moving slightly off topic Matt is it possible to make this golf course easier, could you consider getting an architects eye to soften some of these problems?

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

In other situations that might work -- but PR is jammed into a site that should only have had 9-holes plus the other amenities. When people talk about the demands of PGA West or TPC / Sawgrass, which Pete both did, the demands of PR are beyond those two in my mind. Get any type of serious wind blowing and you can really see the scores go sky high in a NY minute.

Let me put it this way -- an ordinary 10 handicap would easily be 4-5 shots higher at PR -- and heaven help ANYONE who executes military style golf with the driver -- you know -- the left / right / left variety.

I'd also say that the ownership believes the course set-up as is works for them. No doubt you could get some architect to soften some of the features but the site itself requires pinpoint play in a number of instances.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Matt- Point taken ..... is it doing 15,000 rounds?

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

I don't have any stats to confirm.

I'd be surprised if it did the amount you listed.

To give you an example -- Bethpage Black is easier to play from a lost balls perspective than PR.

PR eats balls like Hannibal Lechter eats humans !!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I've played PR.

It's very difficult, and, you're correct, it eats golf balls as if it's a surlyn vampire that comes out to feast during the day.

It may be far too difficult for substantive repeat play and probably not a course that many would drive an hour to play on a repeat basis.

I'd be curious to know the rounds per year figures.

[Matt_Ward]

PR can only work w tiered pricing and a bit more effort on toning down the peripheral challenges that are present. A quick remedy would be cutting the grass down to fairway height on the mounds that abut many of the holes. You also have tee boxes that need to be kept closed -- save for the really elite players. Finally, the inane tree that blocks the fairway on the 18th hole needs to go.

For pure score -- PR probably is tougher than the Black Course at Bethpage because the slighest error can easily become a snowman on the card.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I agree, the long grass has to go.

It gobbles up balls and slows play down considerably.

Golfers don't like taking big numbers on several holes due to lost balls in the tall grass.

The day and the round cease being fun and become a long, laborious trek

[Mark Woodger]

Adrian:

I don't have any stats to confirm.

I'd be surprised if it did the amount you listed.

To give you an example -- Bethpage Black is easier to play from a lost balls perspective than PR.

PR eats balls like Hannibal Lechter eats humans !!!

Maybe they are making money buy finding the balls and then selling them!

I have never played Pound Ridge but it is on my list for this year as i work in the area. Its expensive but worth a one time visit to me. Not being a member of a club i do wish i could find a good course to play regularly and i would expect these people are the same. They want to avoid the 5.5hr round and poor quality of course conditions at some of the Westcher Country publics. Unfortunately if the price is dropped more people play and the 5.5hr round becomes the norm and quality drops.

With regards to the Glen Club. I played there last year. loved the course thought it was really enjoyable to play but it was a soulless place in the clubhouse afterwards. A shame because with an active membership i thought it could have been a really nice place to spend some time.