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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2002, 09:14:58 PM »
This is going to be the last tid bit for a while. I don't want to go over board here, but I'm pretty excited about Rustic Canyon. The following is taken from the tee; mid fairway and then from about 60 yards out from the green on the 11th. The waste bunker is pretty cool, as well as the movement that happens near the bunker on the right. It is sort of deceiving for the second, but it is the safe shot in, while anything left is flirting with the much more shot damaging waste bunker. the green is to me, very Ross-like.




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Mike O'Neill

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2002, 04:52:26 AM »
Geoff and/or Gil,

Not to ignore the golf potential of the course, but because this is the way my mind works (just ask Dan Proctor), I am curious about how the site drains. Since the course is in a canyon, has it survived any gully-washers yet? I noticed that the Kittleman bunker seems to be constructed in part in a swale. But I can't tell if it is on the high side or low side of the water flow. What problems, if any, has water flow caused? What sort of rain totals does the area get during severe storms.

We put in the same type of cart paths at Bayside in Nebraska, although the site was in some ways more severe. But I was/am always worried about wash outs during big rains. It is difficult to always keep the paths out of the flow of water. Sometimes, in some locations, that type of path has to paved over. Have you experienced any of that?

Also, how do the bunkers drain? Is the soil sandy enough to allow the water through? Were you able to use sand from the site for the bunkers?

Thanks,
Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gil Hanse

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2002, 06:21:54 AM »
Mike,
      The site drains very well, with the sandy composition, it soaks up water pretty well.  We did have several heavy rains over the winter, with the first one in November (3+ inches) causing some damage because the course was still pretty immature. Subsequent rains have yielded less damage, and the course seems to have stabilized.
     Unfortunately the owner decided to use concrete for the paths, although we did use native soil with a polymer applied to it through the dry wash, and it held up great.  It would have been nice to stick with these native paths throughout the course, but we lost that battle.
     As for the green and the backboard, bunkers, etc., as Geoff described it, it was design by committee.  The front bunker does indeed conceal a drainage swale that takes a lot of water from the clubhouse, road, etc. and runs it across the 1st fairway, in a creekbed, and then across the front of 8 running behind the bunker.  The natural flow of the site runs through this valley, and rather than pipe it we thought we would leave it as it has always been.  The use of the bunker to conceal it, and also play visual tricks off the tee, was an interesting way to achieve the functional and playable characteristics we hoped for on the hole.  The backboard was not a concession to public golf, but rather a concession to the natural landform, as well as a nod to the "Short Hole" greens of Macdonald and Raynor.  The right 2/3rds of the green forms the horseshoe bowl of the Short green, with only the left side of the green having the narrow shelf above the bowl (which is where the pin is in the photo).  We think that there is enough slope in the green to make putting adventuresome if the green is hit off the tee, and that there is enough variety and character in the surrounds to make for some interesting short game play.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Leslie_Claytor

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2002, 06:27:44 PM »
Looks like a great hole hand fit into a beautiful site.  Nice to see you don't have development headaches to deal with.  I would love to get out there before opening to walk and sketch.

What I really wanted to comment on is the quality of the shaping.  From the photos, it almost looks like it was shaped with a mule and scoop like turn of the century courses.  It's really hard to get that quality today with bulldozers, but if you've got the right guys in the seat that understand the philosophy you can achieve "undulations of infinite variety."

Kudos
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2002, 07:11:03 PM »
Leslie:
Close, Geoff and a scoop.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2002, 07:14:39 PM »
Les,
I can attest to seeing a scoop in Geoff's hands once or twice. However, I would have given anything to have a shot of him behind a mule-driven scraper!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2002, 03:57:35 AM »
It may be a small point to some but certainly not to Geoff Shackelford and Hanse & Co. but just look at the wild natural vegetation that "transitions" #11 tee from the fairway body of the hole! It's just beautiful in it ruggedness and also (Tom MacWood) that's the kind of "site natural" rugged blending you might be thinking about with "art's and Crafts" etc.

Look at that top photo of #11 and the way that natural vegetation "mimics" to the eye the "look" of the nature of the mountains behind the golf course.

I know even the most unobservant will have that entire setting effect them somehow, even if it's subliminal!

Just look at the photo of #11 from the tee and how that entire hole sits in that overall landscape and does not fight with or "compete with" that entire landscape as far as the eye can see!

These are not architects who have said; "Look what I can do" or "look what I did". That photo is as good a visual definition of what "minimalism" or "site natural architecture" is in golf architecture as I've almost ever seen!!

And in an actual architectural context for golf playing itself I really like it because it is not obvious architectural "roadmapping" strategically. You can see everything but one would think you might need to study it a good deal from the tee to understand the strategy of it at first and later experience probably comes slower rather than faster.

Gil, Jim, Goeff, that's one beautiful natural looking hole--it ought to be on the cover of a magazine--maybe "The New American Cricketer".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2002, 04:07:01 AM »
GeoffShac:

I realize the photography like that shot from #11 tee "telescopes" the overall look and makes it look quite different than being on site but if that hole plays "up the elevation" of Rustic Canyon as much as you say or as much up the elevation as you say there is I sure can't see it! I guess I'm just getting old.

However, if the course really does play that much longer "up elevation" and that much shorter "down elevation" as you say, and it actually is as imperceptible as it seems to me to be, that's extremely cool too.

Sort of the "imperceptible theme" of the golf course, maybe, that may only come with much experience. I hope it contributes to "faking out" good plays more rather then less!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2002, 06:17:38 AM »
Gil Hanse:

Could you go into a little detail about why the owner decided on concrete rather than natural cart paths? Do you believe the natural paths would have held up to the use? To my mind, a concrete cart path through this beautiful site is an abomination, and I'm wondering what the economic trade-offs are. Thanks.

Rick
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jeff_McDowell

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2002, 06:33:38 AM »
Gil,

I'm also curious about the natural cart paths. What was the name of the polymer you used? When did you apply it, and how is it holding up?

You mentioned that you used the polymer in the dry wash and concrete elsewhere. With my limited understanding of polymers it would seem more appropriate to put the stronger more reliable concrete in the dry wash. This is not a criticizm. I am trying to learn.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2002, 09:29:17 AM »
Leslie,
Glad to hear the shaping looks old-fashioned. It's probably more a product of doing very little more than anything else! And when something was done, Gil and Jim are very good at making it look like they didn't do much.

Tom Paul,
11 definitely plays uphill, hard to see it playing that way, but it does. The top to bottome tilt seems more effective and yet less perceptible on the front nine holes. Glad you like the native tie ins, but in all honesty, the detail work has come a long way since these photos were taken. Hopefully the hard lines have been disguised a bit more. :)

Rick and Jeff,
The concrete does look dreadful and doesn't exactly reinforce the "rustic" theme, but hopefully they are fairly well-hidden and out of play. Textron financed the course, and I suspect, insists on concrete for their carts. There should be a fair amount of play here too, so they'll help in that regard and hold up better than native roads I guess. Of course, without play the paths are already cracking due to the sandy soil, so I don't know how smooth of a ride they'll provide, and I don't have any plans to find out!  The course is very walkable.

The DG/native mix is in the wash because the Fish and Game dept demanded it (thankfully) and it looks great, and we don't get enough water through there to cause problems, the site is very, very sandy. The polymer used is called Polypavement. There was a test strip of it just mixed with the native soil and a little DG before construction started. It's still holding firm after bulldozers ran over it and transfer trucks parked on it day after day!
Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike O'Neill

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2002, 09:49:26 AM »
So there is the perfect example for this website as to how a designer is directed to do something that the designer does not necessarily want to do. Textron is financing the project and Geoff ends up with concrete. Even Geoff is subjected to such things. This is something for everyone to remember.

By the way Geoff, it sounds like Textron needed to finance at least 4 inches of compacted stone under the cartpaths. Did they do this? Or is the concrete just sitting on the native soil? Either way, the contractor should have tested the subsurface before pouring the concrete to verify that is was in fact compacted. If you had that in the contract, you may have some warranty work there. I assume that the area is not subjected to freeze/thaw.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2002, 10:47:42 AM »
I hope Gil or Geoff doesn't get offended by what I am about to say but:

Am I the only one that doesn't think the Par 3 hole is that brilliant?

Why is the edging between green and the surrounds so sharp?  Could it not have been smoothed off more?

Is there a reason for this?  Can you ride a triple on that edge?  If so fair enough but it does not look natural to me.  It looks manmade as does the green itself.

The left handside does not blend in with what was there from before, to me it has been pushed up too much.  I don't agree that the lefthand side is pushed up slightly as I think it has been pushed up about a 0.5 - 1 metre.  This could be because of a 100 perfect reasons which I do not know.

Is this minimalism? To me it is not.  The green does not look natural.  The shaping on the left handside could maybe been softer.  The left hand side could have been a chipping area back onto the green but is now a pitching area.  I don't think you would want to bump and run a shot up that bank.

I think the green looks ok but it is nothing special.  As I have always said GCA is subjective and this is just my small opinion and there may be many reasons for pushing the green up so much...

Gil,

Was the green pushed up so much because of storms to protect the green from damage?

If the wind really does get up as someone suggested where is your bail out area or is a lost ball in that natural rough?

However, I do love the rest of the pictures.  

I will see you at the end of May at Tom's do and you can crucify me there...!

As Dan said can you really judge anything by pictures?  No not really.

Brian


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike O'Neill

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2002, 05:25:48 PM »
Brian,

I would like to wait to hear from Geoff and Gil, but I will say that push-up greens almost never look natural to me. So you are probably right about that, at least in a subjective way. But remember, almost everything in golf design is stylized.

I think I detect a swale on the right front side of the green. It looks to be there naturally, so maybe they wanted to elevate the green as you suggest. The pushed up green also allows for some presentation of the greenside bunkers. But I know nothing more than you as I have not been there either.

Geoff? Gil? Was there drainage factored into elevating this green?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2002, 06:07:25 PM »
Mike, Stepping in for one of them, yes there was, but we must remember that "Variety is the spice of life!" and at Rustic Canyon, there is a lot of variety!

The hole is different them most of the other green complexes at Rustic Canyon, and the words of my post "The par three that will roar" I feel will be highly accurate. No matter the length, in this case somewhat short, it is going to be a very scarry target to hit. In truth, of all of the greens, this may be the least receptive in some regard, but it also maybe one of the easier greens to putt. (My take, and that is only looking at that green from a short distance and not actually getting up there to see it throughly.) Once again, you need that on some holes.

The prevailing wind on this hole is going to make it fun too. On most days it will be a left to right, slightly diagonal downwind which will require a lot of spin on a very lofted club.

I also think that, and in no way does the hole look anything like the Postage Stamp, it will have a lot of character similar to that famed hole in the regards of wanting to be on the green and not off of it.

When your dead, you stay dead! (If you get my meaning!)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2002, 06:36:57 PM »
Not to lose sight of the fact that even some of the "old guys" who dreamed of the day when technology and machinery would really let architecture blend with nature they also did caution that tees, fairways, greens and bunkering were always going to be identifiable somehow of being constructed by the hand of man and that those things were acceptable to some architectural degree.

Some of the best of them, though, did talk about trying somehow to match the basic "architectural lines" with the "natural lines" of the site, and it looks to me like they did that with #8 Rustic although anyone can tell what's natural and what was built (the before and after photos are valuable to make that apparent).

Again, as was mentioned in some of the posts above if they'd dropped that green down to the level of natural grade (swale) drainage would not have worked at all.

I know what you mean about the left side, Brian, but look at it again and imagine the more interesting "playability" if you miss the green left compared to what it would be like if they took the left side out in a more gradual "tie-in".

When you come this way Brian, you've just got to see NGLA if you want to see some really eye-popping "manufacturing" that works really well for golf, however.

Brian, hope to be in touch in the next day or two with the Philly stops!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Leslie_Claytor

Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2002, 06:54:10 PM »
Build up the low side laddie!

Speaking from experience, SoCal barrancas like the one retained in front of this green run upwards of five percent. So to build a puttable green on an essentially hard sloping side slope, you have to fill the low side thus creating a dramatic slope left of the green.

On a short par three, steep side slopes are strategically advantageous, just ask Raynor.  The only way to avoid it would be to carry the fill wider, and retaining native areas seems to be the character of the course.

Looks like the course ties in well, and they were blessed with plenty of room to do so.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2002, 10:12:16 AM »
I hope this isn't repetitive...does anybody know exactly when this course opens (or opened) and how one gets in touch with them. I am going to be in LA first weekend in May and am hopeful of seeing this one. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rustic Canyon's 8th--The Par Three That Will R
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2002, 05:06:01 PM »
Jeff,
 Send a message off to Geoff S and he can set you up to look around. I don't think the course will be open that soon, but definitely take a look around if you are in the area. Its worth the visit. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

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