JADED?

[Anthony Gray]

  Are we?

  I am interested in how others think about their golf history. After playing some of the top courses are you underwhelmed by others?

   Are less than great courses uninspiring?

  Because of family in the area I've had the good fortune to play PB close to 20 times. I have no desiire to do it again. The courses that I have played multiple times and do not get old I can count on one hand. Am I alone?

  Does the next great must play measure up tp your hopes?

  Are our expectations too high for new courses or courses played for the first time? Guilty?

 Once you go Top 100 can you ever go back?

  Anthony

[TEPaul]

Interesting questions, Anthony.

They are probably big questions with big answers but personally, more and more I am beginning to think that too many of us on here are thinking too much and it very well may be to our own detriment over time.

I guess it may be appropriate to some of us to ask if some of the questions like the ones you ask really are appropriate----really appropriate or appropriate on something that might be of a large scale?

I'm not sure I know how to answer that at this point other than perhaps with a story.

When I grew up, I am only beginning to realize now, I grew up in a most fortunate and phenomonally interesting world, or at least I'm beginning to realize so many more than I ever thought might think so. There was essentially the best of life all around me all the time. Did I understand or even recognize or realize my good fortune?

Sad to say I did not and it included things like availablity and access to the greatest courses and such in the world.

And then I went into the Marine Corps and all of that was gone and for enough of an extended period of time where we were all reduced to some of what seemingly would be the most mind-fryingly boring things to have to be put through like long periods of time with nothing whatsoever of interest to do. So we reverted to doing things like throwing pebbles in a pond and for long periods of time. Obviously, I'm being a bit figurative here but much of it is literal and I hope you get the picture.

Did we find ways to make total sense of it and amuse ourselves with it greatly?

You bet we did.

I hope that helps but it probably doesn't.

[Jaeger Kovich]

  I am interested in how others think about their golf history. After playing some of the top courses are you underwhelmed by others?ABSOLUTELY: Happened to me this weekend, but I feel as though the underwhelming feeling was more of a characteristic of the golf course, rather than my impression of the place. I happened to love it.

   Are less than great courses uninspiring?
Lots of great courses have uninspiring holes... But NO... as someone who is seeking a career in gca, NO! I am always inspired to create either something better than what I am seeing, or to somehow involve the golf course into my design ideas.

  Because of family in the area I've had the good fortune to play PB close to 20 times. I have no desiire to do it again. The courses that I have played multiple times and do not get old I can count on one hand. Am I alone?

Are you just talking "great" courses? I always want to see/play new stuff, but there are only a hand full of courses I wouldn't play again... but then again, I will almost never turn down a round no matter where it is, its still golf... mostly

  Does the next great must play measure up tp your hopes?
almost always... I've been to the 2 courses that are going to be #1 on the next Best New lists... expectations exceeded!!

  Are our expectations too high for new courses or courses played for the first time? Guilty?
sometimes. I guess it depends on the designer and the golfer though

 Once you go Top 100 can you ever go back?
Absolutely... If you dont, you are going to have a really hard time finding a game! There are a million courses out there, why limit yourself to what a bunch of panelists think?

 


[/quote]

[Anthony Gray]

Interesting questions, Anthony.

They are probably big questions with big answers but personally, more and more I am beginning to think that too many of us on here are thinking too much and it very well may be to our own detriment over time.

I guess it may be appropriate to some of us to ask if some of the questions like the ones you ask really are appropriate----really appropriate or appropriate on something that might be of a large scale?

I'm not sure I know how to answer that at this point other than perhaps with a story.

When I grew up, I am only beginning to realize now, I grew up in a most fortunate and phenomonally interesting world, or at least I'm beginning to realize so many more than I ever thought might think so. There was essentially the best of life all around me all the time. Did I understand or even recognize or realize my good fortune?

Sad to say I did not and it included things like availablity and access to the greatest courses and such in the world.

And then I went into the Marine Corps and all of that was gone and for enough of an extended period of time where we were all reduced to some of what seemingly would be the most mind-fryingly boring things to have to be put through like long periods of time with nothing whatsoever of interest to do. So we reverted to doing things like throwing pebbles in a pond and for long periods of time. Obviously, I'm being a bit figurative here but much of it is literal and I hope you get the picture.

Did we find ways to make total sense of it and amuse ourselves with it greatly?

You bet we did.

I hope that helps but it probably doesn't.

  Thanks for the post Tom. In life some things are never as good as the first time. Isn't that a tribute to the great course that it never gets old with multiple plays? So with time does the list of courses that fall into that catagory lessen? It has with me. Shameful?

  Anthony

[TEPaul]

"Thanks for the post Tom. In life some things are never as good as the first time."


Anthony:

If I thought that way and certainly epistemologically, it might be pretty hard to get old----and I am getting old. Maybe I'm a rationalizer, perhaps so, but no, my experiences seem to tell me that it is not exactly true to assume that some things are never as good as the first time.  

Not to be graphic but not a month goes by that I don't think of the first time I made love to the most beautiful woman I think I've ever known and loved, and I think of course how good it was that first time, so new, so amazing, so whatever. But we lived together for ten years and we got to know each other so well over that time with all our highs and lows and ups and downs that a full decade invariablly brings. In seriously considered retrospect---did it get better over time and tide than that first time of unhistoric ecstasy? Of course it did.

If someone was to ask me why in some full epistemological way, what would I say? I don't really know except we had a history and that was important to us, we felt it and it showed itself.

So why did it end? Give me a couple of weeks and I will get back to you on that.

[Anthony Gray]

"Thanks for the post Tom. In life some things are never as good as the first time."


Anthony:

If I thought that way and certainly epistemologically, it might be pretty hard to get old----and I am getting old. Maybe I'm a rationalizer, perhaps so, but no, my experiences seem to tell me that it is not exactly true to assume that some things are never as good as the first time.  

Not to be graphic but not a month goes by that I don't think of the first time I made love to the most beautiful woman I think I've ever known and loved, and I think of course how good it was that first time, so new, so amazing, so whatever. But we lived together for ten years and we got to know each other so well over that time with all our highs and lows and ups and downs that a full decade invariablly brings. In seriously considered retrospect---did it get better over time and tide than that first time of unhistoric ecstasy? Of course it did.

If someone was to ask me why in some full epistemological way, what would I say? I don't really know except we had a history and that was important to us, we felt it and it showed itself.

So why did it end? Give me a couple of weeks and I will get back to you on that.

  Again Tom...thanks for the wisdom. With time you learn to value different things. The great courses are that way with repeated plays. But how many of those courses are there? The third wife I sent packing after she turned 30 and thus violated the pre-nup. Guilty?

  Anthony

[Phil_the_Author]

Since we are really talking about attitude, I believe the answer lay in how one was taught the game. For me it was always simply the joy of playing. I grew up playing terrible public courses before discovering Bethpage and yet those terrible courses were where we would play as an entire family.

Today I look at a course separate from how I play. For example, down here by me north of Atlanta, there exists the single WORST finishing hole AND par-5 on the planet! Yet I would still enjoying playing it, and the rest of the course, with friends or alone on a late afternoon.

It is personal challenge, joy of my surroundings and inner peace that comes first in golf for me...

Give me a great course or a poor one; just give me the opportunity to play and all the important things abnout the game will be there for me...

[Anthony Gray]

  For the sake of discussion...Let's take the KP. Did more people sign up because Sherwood CC was part of the rota? Is participation in the KP,Dixie Cup and BUDDA effected by the quality of the venues?

  Discuss...

 

[TEPaul]

Anthony:

Sorry about that maudlin reversion into life and love but to get back to golf courses---as mundane as they may be compared to sex and love, I guess I would have to say I'm an enormous fan of testing the limits of firm and fast as well as green speeds on various courses. I just happen to think when that is done intelligently some of these really interesting courses and architecture just comes alive like great big strobe lights. It's a complicate and perhaps controversial issue sometimes but that is the way I feel with what I consider to be a certain amount of experience with this stuff.

A good example would be my own golf course is so much more interesting and exciting today than it was ten and more years ago and the reasons why are not exactly something that happened by accident.

PS:
I actually thought I was talking to Anthony Butler. So it's Anthony Gray. No matter!

[Matthew Petersen]

My love is golf first. I am every bit as challenged and frustrated by my game when playing with my wife on a yawner executive course as anywhere else. Now, GCA can make golf feel more fulfilling, more thrilling. But I hope it never overcomes the simple pleasures of the game.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

I suppose some would say I am jaded, because I've had the opportunity to visit nearly all the best courses, some of them many times.  And my interest in golf has ALWAYS been wrapped up with the design of the courses I'm seeing, from the time I was 11 or 12 years old; so if a course offers little or nothing of interest, architecturally, I am not too excited to play it.

By the same token, I think I am as excited as anyone out there to see a new course which DOES have something of interest architecturally.  And I believe they are still out there ... some of them already built, some of them just waiting.

[John Moore II]

  For the sake of discussion...Let's take the KP. Did more people sign up because Sherwood CC was part of the rota? Is participation in the KP,Dixie Cup and BUDDA effected by the quality of the venues?

  Discuss...

Well, it might be, I've never played in any of them. But with a gathering like the ones you mention, sure, the courses might make a difference in participation. Same as with a normal 'golf' vacation. Why would I travel to south Florida or California or anywhere else with the intention of playing golf and not playing the best courses possible? So, certainly the courses are likely to have an impact on participation.

To go back to the first question, no, having played some really top class courses has not affected my enjoyment of 'average' courses. I may be a little more critical of features and stuff like that, but I still enjoy less than stellar golf courses. I simply enjoy the game of golf. If your enjoyment of golf is based solely on playing world class golf courses, you are far different from me.

Are my expectations too high for a new course that I am playing? Probably not, unless I went to a course specifically because I heard it was awesome and then it wasn't up to the standards I had heard.

Of the last 4 'new' courses I played, one I played because it was at my university, two were played because of who designed them (Doak and Dye) and the other was with a friend on his recommendation. The university course was not a let down, matter of fact, I was impressed, though I was critical of some individual features. The Doak (Riverfront) I was fairly impressed by, I'll return numerous times. The other two were "averageish" courses, though I'll most likely give them a second chance because both rounds were played in 40 degree temperatures and 15-20 mph winds.

So, I don't think the fact that I've played Pinehurst #2, CCNC, etc., has made me dislike playing average golf courses one bit.

[Jim Nugent]

 I've been to the 2 courses that are going to be #1 on the next Best New lists... expectations exceeded!![/b]

 

Dormie and Old Mac? 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

  Are we?

  I am interested in how others think about their golf history. After playing some of the top courses are you underwhelmed by others?

   Are less than great courses uninspiring?

  Because of family in the area I've had the good fortune to play PB close to 20 times. I have no desiire to do it again. The courses that I have played multiple times and do not get old I can count on one hand. Am I alone?

  Does the next great must play measure up tp your hopes?

  Are our expectations too high for new courses or courses played for the first time? Guilty?

 Once you go Top 100 can you ever go back?

  Anthony

I'm not jaded, but then again, I haven't played as many top courses as you have.

Is your decision to play a course based on it's ranking? Maybe you think too much about courses in the Top 100 and have concentrated on playing those top courses, with the result that you've missed out on less known courses that might surprise you. The problem with playing a course that is 50th in the Top 100, is that it will most likely disappoint you, if you resort to comparing and ranking. That's the problem in my opinion; too much ranking and comparing. Treat the course in isolation and avoid comparisons; try not to be too critical.

Maybe you're playing too much golf; have you thought of taking a break for a while?

[Gary Slatter]

Anthony, my answer is no.  I have played many of the great courses and enjoy playing some that are not considered great on this site.  If I can play golf I am not disappointed.  I would like to play County Down forever.

 some courses that I read so much about have come up as just normal experiences.  I like to make my own opionion.  I played the Old many times the past couple of years, some times I would be annoyed about the set up, the pins, the conditions of the greens, etc. but it never bothered me.  However, when I played a newer course like Kingsbarns it annoyed me to find any of the conditions out of whack.  I'd rather play Lundin than KB anyway.   I love Carnoustie in any condition but sometimes did not like Turnberry - don't know why exactly.  Loved Muirfield, not sure about Renaissance Club. 

Not sure I would want to go top 100 all the time - I have my own top 100.

[Mike Hendren]

There's something magical about every golf course:  bread and butter is satisfying if nothing else.

Bogey

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony, my answer is no.  I have played many of the great courses and enjoy playing some that are not considered great on this site.  If I can play golf I am not disappointed.  I would like to play County Down forever.

 some courses that I read so much about have come up as just normal experiences.  I like to make my own opionion.  I played the Old many times the past couple of years, some times I would be annoyed about the set up, the pins, the conditions of the greens, etc. but it never bothered me.  However, when I played a newer course like Kingsbarns it annoyed me to find any of the conditions out of whack.  I'd rather play Lundin than KB anyway.   I love Carnoustie in any condition but sometimes did not like Turnberry - don't know why exactly.  Loved Muirfield, not sure about Renaissance Club. 

Not sure I would want to go top 100 all the time - I have my own top 100.

  Gary,

 Like you sometimes I don't know exactly why a course doesn't do it for me. Jaded may be the answer. The Old Course never gets old but others aren't worth the effort to return. Hard to put my finger on why but I find myself being shamefully critical of golfing experiences as I age. Shame on me. My favorite course is the one I am playing with friends,but I'm always looking for that next high. Saw the photos of Roko KI and said gotta go there. Was not dissapointed. Those Baja Peninsula courses make my mouth water.

  Anthony

  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

Jaded by the courses, no, never as it depends upon so many variables. Ones mood, the weather, being alone, with friends or making up a 4 ball with strangers. As for the course its what you make of it, are you just wanting to go and to win, win, win or are you there to play with the course, to rise to the challenges (if any as we know some seem very limited at times). I prefer to work with the course, much like sailing where you do not fight the sea, you work with her, that brings out more in ones game, well IMHO.

The only thing that does JADED me at times are some of the other golfers who totally disregard  others on the course and who generally are the reason why I will not revisit courses that tolerate poor course behaviour. 

I would not say TOC is any less enjoyable today that in the 1960’s. Prestwick still has the ability to attract me to her. In fact there are very few well known courses that disappoint to this day. But then it depends what’s on your mind. I think I can honestly say that I have had more disappointing bottles of wine than encounters with poor courses, as I said it depends upon you state of mind and your approach to the game. I am not a hunter looking for a kill, nothing so crude, but I am looking for a game, via the courtesy of the designer assisted greatly by Mother Natures.   

The name of the game is golf which is totally governed by variables. We see this time and again on the links courses with the wind & weather. Many just try to ride out the time, but seem lost in the trailing pack, comforted among numbers but the older skilled players play the conditions. We have seen this over the last few years with G Norman and T Watson coming out leading whiles the rest of the field huddle for warmth and security. Yet once the weather improves, the game gets easy, so the chasing pack start to catch the older wise player. How do we define that, when looking back over the game, I feel we should be honest and say still much is still there to learn and understand and that it is not always down to how long you can it a ball. So my point I suppose is that our older courses still have the ability to sort out the men from the boys , so Jaded, no can’t agree with that.

Melvyn

[JNC Lyon]

I think it all depends on the individual.

Less than great courses can inspire me, but it really depends on the day.  Seven Oaks, my second home course, is a good but not great layout.  There are some days when I am very indifferent to the golf course.  Yet there are some days when I absolutely love it.  Each hole is a wild adventure, something that pushes me to hit shots I have never hit before.  

I think great courses do this more often than the good and average ones, but all types of courses can do it at some point.

Some of the most inspiring rounds I have played have been on less than great courses.  I played Monroe Country Club, a nine-hole William Flynn course this summer.  It is probably not a great course.  Yet I absolutely loved it the one time I played it.  We played very early in the morning.  The mist was just lifting from the land.  The golf course, however, was playing firm and fast.  Monroe has no sprinkler system, meaning that every shot takes wild bounces upon landing.  The greens were true and very fun.  My playing partners and I had a great best-ball match.  We finished in under two hours.  It was the end of a great road trip.  

Was Monroe the best course I have ever played?  No, far from it.  But that nine-hole round is among my half-dozen favorite rounds of all time.

For me, I love golf no matter what.  If I have to play a tenth rate municipal course, I will.  It's golf, for goodness sakes!  Inspiration can come in many ways.  I measure courses not by whether or not they inspire me, but to what degree they inspire me.

[Anthony Gray]

There's something magical about every golf course:  bread and butter is satisfying if nothing else.

Bogey

  I agree. The inherant charms of golf always prevails. But lets take the KP for those of us in the south. More would travel for the greater venues.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony

Jaded by the courses, no, never as it depends upon so many variables. Ones mood, the weather, being alone, with friends or making up a 4 ball with strangers. As for the course its what you make of it, are you just wanting to go and to win, win, win or are you there to play with the course, to rise to the challenges (if any as we know some seem very limited at times). I prefer to work with the course, much like sailing where you do not fight the sea, you work with her, that brings out more in ones game, well IMHO.

The only thing that does JADED me at times are some of the other golfers who totally disregard  others on the course and who generally are the reason why I will not revisit courses that tolerate poor course behaviour. 

I would not say TOC is any less enjoyable today that in the 1960’s. Prestwick still has the ability to attract me to her. In fact there are very few well known courses that disappoint to this day. But then it depends what’s on your mind. I think I can honestly say that I have had more disappointing bottles of wine than encounters with poor courses, as I said it depends upon you state of mind and your approach to the game. I am not a hunter looking for a kill, nothing so crude, but I am looking for a game, via the courtesy of the designer assisted greatly by Mother Natures.   

The name of the game is golf which is totally governed by variables. We see this time and again on the links courses with the wind & weather. Many just try to ride out the time, but seem lost in the trailing pack, comforted among numbers but the older skilled players play the conditions. We have seen this over the last few years with G Norman and T Watson coming out leading whiles the rest of the field huddle for warmth and security. Yet once the weather improves, the game gets easy, so the chasing pack start to catch the older wise player. How do we define that, when looking back over the game, I feel we should be honest and say still much is still there to learn and understand and that it is not always down to how long you can it a ball. So my point I suppose is that our older courses still have the ability to sort out the men from the boys , so Jaded, no can’t agree with that.

Melvyn

  Why do so many americans travel to GB&I to golf?  Jaded. After playing links golf they are not going to settle for the US courses. THey want the best. So they spend there golf travel dollars across the pond.

  Anthony

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

Sorry, I thought that the mass exodus each year was all down to getting away from Pat Craig. 

You guys want to play on real genuine courses form time to time, sorry yes I now see your point.
But you must have some bloody good ones considering the number in the USA, so I still put some of the blame at Pats door. Well its either blame the designers or Pat, so no contest

Melvyn
   

[Tim Martin]

I think it all depends on the individual.

Less than great courses can inspire me, but it really depends on the day.  Seven Oaks, my second home course, is a good but not great layout.  There are some days when I am very indifferent to the golf course.  Yet there are some days when I absolutely love it.  Each hole is a wild adventure, something that pushes me to hit shots I have never hit before.  

I think great courses do this more often than the good and average ones, but all types of courses can do it at some point.

Some of the most inspiring rounds I have played have been on less than great courses.  I played Monroe Country Club, a nine-hole William Flynn course this summer.  It is probably not a great course.  Yet I absolutely loved it the one time I played it.  We played very early in the morning.  The mist was just lifting from the land.  The golf course, however, was playing firm and fast.  Monroe has no sprinkler system, meaning that every shot takes wild bounces upon landing.  The greens were true and very fun.  My playing partners and I had a great best-ball match.  We finished in under two hours.  It was the end of a great road trip.  

Was Monroe the best course I have ever played?  No, far from it.  But that nine-hole round is among my half-dozen favorite rounds of all time.

For me, I love golf no matter what.  If I have to play a tenth rate municipal course, I will.  It's golf, for goodness sakes!  Inspiration can come in many ways.  I measure courses not by whether or not they inspire me, but to what degree they inspire me.

JNC-That`s a great post. Some of my most enjoyable golf days half come on less than stellar designs. It could be the weather, the company, a memorable shot or hole that makes for a great day of golf. I think that most on this site appreciate and long to play great courses. Some are luckier than others in which ones they get to play and how often. I don`t feel jaded in the least and if I never got to play another top 100 it would not diminish my love for the game. 

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony

Sorry, I thought that the mass exodus each year was all down to getting away from Pat Craig. 

You guys want to play on real genuine courses form time to time, sorry yes I now see your point.
But you must have some bloody good ones considering the number in the USA, so I still put some of the blame at Pats door. Well its either blame the designers or Pat, so no contest

Melvyn
   

  We do have some good/great courses here in the States, But once you go links its hard to go back. Nice to hear from you.

  Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

  Why do so many americans travel to GB&I to golf?  Jaded. After playing links golf they are not going to settle for the US courses. THey want the best. So they spend there golf travel dollars across the pond.

  Anthony

That desire to play the links courses describes me to a tee, but I also love playing here.  I will play anywhere with buddies, the company always trumps the golf.